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cannibalism, I dont undersand

VanUnamed

Songster
6 Years
Jul 26, 2018
189
161
143
Romania
Hello
I am facing a big problem with my "meat" flock. this is just one of many.
this year, I could not afford to make a new breeding stock, i say, well, let's BUY chicks, as they are cheaper from the local "tractor supply"
(my hens are strongly suspected of being carriers of salmonella thypoid or pullorum as last year many chicks died or not hatched at all)
infact, they were cheaper than raising a new breeding stock, as i paid about $35 usd for 60 chicks. 10 girls, 50 males.
The breed are, 25x kabir, of which 10 girls, and 25x "farm run, or mixed breed"
I also decided to buy them as bought chicks are (supposed?) to be vaccinated for Marek. at least thats whats I was told.
Now remember that here, is not america. nothing they tell you must really mean it's correct, and you will get zero accountability.
as long as they were inside in the brooder, all was fine. After we put them outside, in moveable chicken tractors, problems began.
at about week 4, (outside was always hot enough that they didnt need supplemental heat) they started dying. it looked awfully a lot like marek.
i lost about 8, i really lost count, it could've been the excessive heat, but heat don't cause leg paralysis.
now note well. Death #1, occurred during the afternoon while i was not there, when i came to check on them, i found it dead... and eaten.
I was not thrilled that they ate the dead, but nothing else on can do.
the chicken tractors, are 4'x8' and are moved every day on the now-present grass, as it was all dry until september.
occasionally one or two became victim of toe pecking, but nothing too serious that could not be treated.
today, the horror.
it was a long time that no one died again. they are now 10wk old. I came after lunch to do something near there, and inside they looked like they were crazy
chasing one another. I could not see, so i went to look, and not only they ate part of the dead again, but they also pecked each other's tails, 3 of them required "hospitalization".
I do not understand their behaviour. we feed them well at 19% protein, we move them every day, they are never lacking feed or water.
Yes maybe they re a bit tight, but i am not sure. after all, the bad stock i bought, some remained very small even at 10wk old, the one that died weighed merely 2lb.
What's bad other than the loss of stock will also mean loss of food for next year, is that i really am not sure if next year i will put more meat chickens, as you can see, either we breed our own with no possibility of vaccination or there's not much choice. And yes, i also tried getting eggs from people around, but so I get unknown bad genetic traits, or vertically spread diseases. Hogs at worst bite their tails. so far, raising this group looked like a good way to waste money and time to end up with an empty plate.

Why they do this?
 
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Wow! I've never heard of chickens cannibalizing their own kind, until I looked it up! Apparently, it's an ugly topic that people don't like to talk about. I had to wonder if they are stressed somehow... so I Googled it and found lots of information. Thanks for the education!

In summary (related to your young birds; I left out info that relates only to mature birds), I read that cannibalism can occur for a number of reasons, mainly:
*overcrowding (number one reason)
*heat stress
*too much light
*nutritional deficiencies
*boredom

You said you use chicken tractors that are 4-ft X 8-ft. How many? How many birds are you housing in each tractor?
4' x 8' = 32 sq feet, or about 3 sq meters.

From this source, https://extension.psu.edu/cannibalism-in-chickens, I found:
"For large breeds of chickens, 0.25 ft2/bird should be given for the first 2 weeks, 0.75 ft2/bird for 3-8 weeks of age, 1.5 ft2/bird from 8 to 16 weeks of age, and 2 ft2/bird from 16 weeks of age onwards."

And this source, specifically about Kabir chickens, https://lopehpoultry.blogspot.com/2009/10/kabir-chicken.html says:
"0-3 weeks @ 20 head per sq/meter
4-6 weeks @ 10 head per sq/meter
6 weeks & above @ 5 head per sq/meter"


That's a significant difference. By Penn State's figures, you'd be able to house 21 large breed birds. By Lopehpoultry's figures for Kabirs, only 15.

I've raised CornishX meat birds, which sound similar in growth rate to the Kabirs but without the freakish problems. Even with this mild-mannered breed, I'd probably put no more than 10 per tractor.

But read up on the other triggers, too - heat stress, too much light, boredom, nutrition... and see if any of those might apply to your setup.
 
thanks for you reply. i have less than 30 on tractor #1, but many of those are very small for their age (mixed breed) and the one where they eat one another less than 20. tomorrow i bring out tractor #3 so maybe they have more room to move
 
thanks for you reply. i have less than 30 on tractor #1, but many of those are very small for their age (mixed breed) and the one where they eat one another less than 20. tomorrow i bring out tractor #3 so maybe they have more room to move
Bring out or build tractor #4, too - or find or make a larger enclosure/coop/run for some of them. Those who are small for their age are also overcrowded, and likely not growing as they should because of it. I strongly recommend you have no more than 15 birds per tractor.

Make sure there's plenty of shade - not just to stay cool (summer is nearly over), but to limit how much direct sunlight they're exposed to. Maybe move tractors to a shadier area, or add tarps or something to get them out of direct sunlight.

Keep watch over them as often as you can. If any bird shows signs of being injured (visible blood) or red patches of skin showing, remove that bird PROMPTLY. Chickens will attack any members of the flock they see as weak, sick or injured - and I read that once they start cannibalizing each other, it becomes a hard habit to break.

Supplement their feed, if you can, with weeds, herbs, vegetable or fruit scraps (beware apple seeds! they contain cyanide!). Not too much, just 10% of their daily feed intake, but enough to provide distraction and entertainment. Make sure they have access to bare dirt or leafy areas to scratch in for bugs and dust baths for part of each day. Don't give them grass clippings, except for what they browse on their own - it can cause impacted crop.

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Even if your chickens are small for their age they are extremely overcrowded (overcrowding can also cause growth issues). Any time I have ever seen or heard of chicken cannibalism it was due to overcrowding. If you have 30 chickens in a 4x8 tractor you only have. 1 sq ft of space per bird kept there 24/7 and at 10 weeks old that is way too small (even at 4 weeks that is not enough space).
 
I have 45 left. so overall 15 died, one reason or another. so 3 tractors would do 15 each. the one where the cannibalism occured had just 16. so even moving them every day to fresh grass makes no difference, still need more space? they do have shade, and it's not hot now. the tractors are high, you can stand in them.
 
I have 45 left. so overall 15 died, one reason or another. so 3 tractors would do 15 each. the one where the cannibalism occured had just 16. so even moving them every day to fresh grass makes no difference, still need more space? they do have shade, and it's not hot now. the tractors are high, you can stand in them.

They need space to roam and get away from one another. Height doesn't matter, it's about the total land space they have to move. As others have said, each chicken needs 4sqft IN THE COOP. In the run, it's about 10 sq ft EACH CHICKEN. You need about 150 square feet if you want to house 15 chickens in one tractor. That's about 13 square meters per tractor if they are only in the tractors and not allowed to roam freely.

edited to fix my measurement mistake. I said 13sq m per bird, but 150sqft is 13sqm. My bad.
 
it seems odd to me. birds in industrial settings here, are kept in about 1sqf per bird on concrete no enrichment and they don't eat one another. previous years i had a similar density of 15 per tractor and they also did not eat one another. It is also that they were birds from my breeding stock where aggressive behaviours were bred out. this is a meat flock, supposed to live 3, 4 months at the max, my main hens flock is not that tight. resources are tight, i can't afford building anything else this year. i can only add tractor #3
I could let them out during the day in the electric net area that surrounds the tractors, but it could be a risk. the fox proven to have outsmarted the net. she climbs on nearby trees and jumps in, or sneaks in when there is no "click". a roaming dog could also figure it out. the main thing that keep predators out, is the tractor themselves. if a predator gets in and kills all, what do we eat then?
 
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it seems odd to me. birds in industrial settings here, are kept in about 1sqf per bird on concrete no enrichment and they don't eat one another. previous years i had a similar density of 15 per tractor and they also did not eat one another. It is also that they were birds from my breeding stock where aggressive behaviours were bred out. this is a meat flock, supposed to live 3, 4 months at the max, my main hens flock is not that tight. resources are tight, i can't afford building anything else this year. i can only add tractor #3.
Those commercial birds are generally debeaked, so they can't peck at each other or themselves.
 
last year we picked up 60 live ones for a neighbour from there, they weren't debeaked. but they had a lot of missing feathers.the bad is that it took a day or two for them to start walking normally
 

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