Challenges of living in the woods with chickens

[Florida Bullfrog]

Easy to answer. Native = there without human intervention. The natural spread of species into new areas over generations means the species is native.

The wikipedia page on native species sums it up beautifully.

"In biogeography, a native species is indigenous to a given region or ecosystem if its presence in that region is the result of only local natural evolution (though often popularised as "with no human intervention") during history. The term is equivalent to the concept of indigenous or autochthonous species.
"A native species in a location is not necessarily also endemic to that location. Endemic species are exclusively found in a particular place. A native species may occur in areas other than the one under consideration. The terms endemic and native also do not imply that an organism necessarily first originated or evolved where it is currently found."

That’s arbitrary with no practical distinction in results. Let me illustrate.

A flea species that has never been to North America rides the back of a wild wolf from Siberia to British Columbia across the Bering landbridge. The flea is now introduced into America.

The same flea rides a domestic dog being transported by a human from Siberia to British Columbia by boat.

The results are the same. The flea got here by being transported by something else. It didn’t matter if it was a human, a dog, a wolf, or a bear, doing the transporting.

Ancestral coyotes were once present in Florida prior to known human settlement. They went extinct. In the early and mid 1900s, humans brought captive coyotes into Florida to train fox hounds on. Some of those coyotes escaped and began breeding with the local red wolves and feral domestic dogs. Concurrent with that, coyotes spread across the Mississippi on their own and by the 1970s had come into west Florida. The half-coyotes and full coyotes started breeding and now we have a large population of classic coyotes that sometimes trend larger than other coyotes due to the wolf and domestic dog genes buried deep their backgrounds.

Are coyotes therefore “native” to Florida? Its complicated. And ultimately irrelevant. They just “are.” And therefore its up to man to decide whether we find them useful to be here or not. We can either let them grow wild like a weed, or we can control them (the equivalent of pruning a plant), or we can (theoretically) wipe them out. Depends on what we want.

There’s no magic law of the universe that says that if a plant or animal does something without human intervention, its ok, but if it does something with human intervention, its unnatural and therefore wrong.

 

[Carontheroad]

This sounds very familiar, however, I try to discourage the chickens to Not go in the woods since the local wildlife I have matches yours.

I box trap any unwanted critters, luring them in to the trap with part of a banana. Raccoons seem to love bananas.

No ravens here... but plenty of "birds of prey" that would be illegal to shoot. (fines and jail time). When I see them, a shotgun blank gets their attention.

Illegal to shoot raptors here as well. Nor do I want to because they are beautiful creatures in their own right. We were ocean fishing the other day and a bald eagle came off shore and hovered over our boat with claws outstretched to get our catch that was in the boat but too small to keep. I thought he would attack before I could get the fish off the hook but he didn’t. It was nerve wracking but so cool to see. Never happened before. The fish swam away and he lost his lunch opportunity.

 

[ColoradoChicken89]

That’s arbitrary with no practical distinction in results. Let me illustrate.

A flea species that has never been to North America rides the back of a wild wolf from Siberia to British Columbia across the Bering landbridge. The flea is now introduced into America.

The same flea rides a domestic dog being transported by a human from Siberia to British Columbia by boat.

The results are the same. The flea got here by being transported by something else. It didn’t matter if it was a human, a dog, a wolf, or a bear, doing the transporting.

Ancestral coyotes were once present in Florida prior to known human settlement. They went extinct. In the early and mid 1900s, humans brought captive coyotes into Florida to train fox hounds on. Some of those coyotes escaped and began breeding with the local red wolves and feral domestic dogs. Concurrent with that, coyotes spread across the Mississippi on their own and by the 1970s had come into west Florida. The half-coyotes and full coyotes started breeding and now we have a large population of classic coyotes that sometimes trend larger than other coyotes due to the wolf and domestic dog genes buried deep their backgrounds.

Are coyotes therefore “native” to Florida? Its complicated. And ultimately irrelevant. They just “are.” And therefore its up to man to decide whether we find them useful to be here or not. We can either let them grow wild like a weed, or we can control them (the equivalent of pruning a plant), or we can (theoretically) wipe them out. Depends on what we want.

There’s no magic law of the universe that says that if a plant or animal does something without human intervention, its ok, but if it does something with human intervention, its unnatural and therefore wrong.

I think all this brings up a really good point... I think it's also important to note, and most things, so long as they are kept within a certain number, are generally not going to be "bad". Things start to become an issue when things aren't kept within what an ecosystem around them can handle.

A good example of this is mint. It is native to parts of Europe or Asia, but they still limit how much they plant and how they plant it, because it can quickly over take a garden or space in areas it thrives. Though, if you take it to Antartica, it's not going to thive so spread won't be an issue. Now some of those spaces may have adapted to have pests and diseases and whatnot to help cull back its growth that a new space isn't equip for so it way overgrows, but other spaces may be MORE equipped with various bugs that prevent it's growth. It's all kinda a give or take, and moderation is important.

Another good example I can think of is wolves. They are reintroducing them into the wild here in CO, because the deer, elk, coytote, etc populations have gotten out of control. Though it's going to be a huge balance of the RIGHT amount of wolves to not cause more issues in cities and towns, and not decimate the rabbit/squirrel populations... (or the pet populations). And is it going to be considered native anymore, if it starts to breed with huskies or german shepards and making what a lot of people would consider a "mutt"? Like, sure they are native to here, and the deer population is getting out of control, but only time will really tell if they are more harm or good in the end.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

Adaptation is what drives evolution might be another way of saying this. Species evolve, individuals adapt.

True, but it's important to note that it's impossible to distinguish the two in nature. There was a harmless beetle in Mexico that Spanish cattle ranchers accidentally moved north along with their cattle into the US. In the wild it ate bur species of plants. However when it got around potatoes it liked them so much that it entirely switched host species. They now call it the Colorado Potato Beetle and it's been shipped around the world where it eats potato crops. If this had happened a couple hundred years earlier humanity might have assumed it co-evolved with the potato

How many times has humanity mistaken ecological fitting for co-evolution? It's impossible to know

 

[Carontheroad]

I will def keep that in mind about th sprinklers or somethings like that!!! We thought about getting a motion detector siren but rigging my voice yelling "HEY" cause that scares off most everything around the house (I used to live above the garage for years growing up, so I kinda learned how to deal with the bear anyways).

As for the LGD's I don't have any direct experience sadly, it's why it was going to be kinda one of the last resort things. I've got a lady that breeds them nearby the property, and I've been talking to her and doing a ton of research, and have stumbled on the sad fact they aren't exactly 100% reliable. It's kinda why if I do go down this path, I'll always keep it seperated from the flock (like with the solid run or tractor). mostly would want it just to exsist outside by the house/run, so that it hopefully keeps more wild things away in general. Though, tbh, I fear cause we have a lot of pet dogs, cats, cows (sometimes), and people/kids... it's def something I kinda worry about. The lady that breeds them did tell me, if she sells me one she would help with training (though nothing 100% guarenteed), so little less worried, but idk if I really want to go this route.

We had this one guy try to raise some chickens, peacocks, and ginea fowl kinda the same way (though without the tractor, so they were free during the day), and it was just a mess. He didn't have a top to his run though, so the hawks would just sit on top of the fence and pick them out of the field or their run The foxes/coyotees would just squeeze under his electric fence and climb over...He used like normal large chain link fence, so anything smaller could just crawl in and out... It was wild.

And that is the area I want to keep my chickens... cause its closest to the wellhouse (aka water/power), so I just know I'll basically have to keep the confined 100% in hardware cloth if I'm not present or they will be gone by winter... lol

That guy you are talking about, was that in a forest type setting or in more open fields? Also curious what colour chickens he had?

 

[Mother of Chaos]

That’s arbitrary with no practical distinction in results. Let me illustrate.

A flea species that has never been to North America rides the back of a wild wolf from Siberia to British Columbia across the Bering landbridge. The flea is now introduced into America.

The same flea rides a domestic dog being transported by a human from Siberia to British Columbia by boat.

The results are the same. The flea got here by being transported by something else. It didn’t matter if it was a human, a dog, a wolf, or a bear, doing the transporting.

Ancestral coyotes were once present in Florida prior to known human settlement. They went extinct. In the early and mid 1900s, humans brought captive coyotes into Florida to train fox hounds on. Some of those coyotes escaped and began breeding with the local red wolves and feral domestic dogs. Concurrent with that, coyotes spread across the Mississippi on their own and by the 1970s had come into west Florida. The half-coyotes and full coyotes started breeding and now we have a large population of classic coyotes that sometimes trend larger than other coyotes due to the wolf and domestic dog genes buried deep their backgrounds.

Are coyotes therefore “native” to Florida? Its complicated. And ultimately irrelevant. They just “are.” And therefore its up to man to decide whether we find them useful to be here or not. We can either let them grow wild like a weed, or we can control them (the equivalent of pruning a plant), or we can (theoretically) wipe them out. Depends on what we want.

There’s no magic law of the universe that says that if a plant or animal does something without human intervention, its ok, but if it does something with human intervention, its unnatural and therefore wrong.

It is very true that we can’t undo history. Whether an organism was introduced deliberately or by accident, it’s here now.

And it’s worth noting that the vast majority of non-native plants are NOT invasive and don’t adversely affect the environment. Chickens, for instance.

But it’s very important to preserve biodiversity in the form of native plants and animals, because we often don’t know their potential for helping humans and other species.

So no, I’m not tearing out my Japanese Kurume hybrid azaleas (all the rage several decades ago), but I’m adding native azaleas and rhododendrons. And I buy very few non-native plants these days, whose primary function is eye candy for humans. Instead I buy native wildflowers, equally lovely in different ways, that support native pollinators, many of which are threatened to the point of extinction by habitat loss and by improper and indiscriminate use of broad-spectrum insecticides.

My small city front yard, as of a few days ago (no room for an oak, lol):

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

True, but it's important to note that it's impossible to distinguish the two in nature.

Right. Because evolution happens on a larger time scale than a human lifetime. So we can visualize adaptation and even effect it but determining what is “good” or “bad” might only be possible with hindsight in some cases. When a glacier advances and retreats it effectively bulldozes the ground underneath. This is good for the Devil’s club and other pioneer/opportunist species that grow in its wake. Bad for us trying to hike through it Good for the soil so it can later support trees, bushes, etc which are good for wildlife that might want to eat us. There are a lot of perspectives. In my situation, I want the “native” plants because I don’t want to have to do anything to manage the wild area that is already established. So even though I like butterfly bush and it does indeed attract butterflies, it also spreads easily here and takes over a niche that is better occupied by something that is considered a weed but that supports more “native” butterfly species. If I have to choose between letting a weed grow and planting a non-native bush and get better results with the weed, you better believe my lazy butt is going with the weed

 

[WildNectarine]

It is very true that we can’t undo history. Whether an organism was introduced deliberately or by accident, it’s here now.

And it’s worth noting that the vast majority of non-native plants are NOT invasive and don’t adversely affect the environment. Chickens, for instance.

But it’s very important to preserve biodiversity in the form of native plants and animals, because we often don’t know their potential for helping humans and other species.

So no, I’m not tearing out my Japanese Kurume hybrid azaleas (all the rage several decades ago), but I’m adding native azaleas and rhododendrons. And I buy very few non-native plants these days, whose primary function is eye candy for humans. Instead I buy native wildflowers, equally lovely in different ways, that support native pollinators, many of which are threatened to the point of extinction by habitat loss and by improper and indiscriminate use of broad-spectrum insecticides.

My small city front yard, as of a few days ago (no room for an oak, lol):

View attachment 4153270
View attachment 4153271

So beautiful, but the ticks! Oh, the ticks… Why must they ruin all that’s good? Hopefully they’re native ticks.

 

[TOMTE]

That’s arbitrary with no practical distinction in results. Let me illustrate.

A flea species that has never been to North America rides the back of a wild wolf from Siberia to British Columbia across the Bering landbridge. The flea is now introduced into America.

The same flea rides a domestic dog being transported by a human from Siberia to British Columbia by boat.

The results are the same. The flea got here by being transported by something else. It didn’t matter if it was a human, a dog, a wolf, or a bear, doing the transporting.

Ancestral coyotes were once present in Florida prior to known human settlement. They went extinct. In the early and mid 1900s, humans brought captive coyotes into Florida to train fox hounds on. Some of those coyotes escaped and began breeding with the local red wolves and feral domestic dogs. Concurrent with that, coyotes spread across the Mississippi on their own and by the 1970s had come into west Florida. The half-coyotes and full coyotes started breeding and now we have a large population of classic coyotes that sometimes trend larger than other coyotes due to the wolf and domestic dog genes buried deep their backgrounds.

Are coyotes therefore “native” to Florida? Its complicated. And ultimately irrelevant. They just “are.” And therefore its up to man to decide whether we find them useful to be here or not. We can either let them grow wild like a weed, or we can control them (the equivalent of pruning a plant), or we can (theoretically) wipe them out. Depends on what we want.

There’s no magic law of the universe that says that if a plant or animal does something without human intervention, its ok, but if it does something with human intervention, its unnatural and therefore wrong.

It actually does matter the context in which a species becomes introduced to a new area. That's basic.

It's natural for a flea to hitch a ride on its host to a new area and, if the ecosystem is able to support the host and/or flea (depending on species and how specialized it is), that flea species may become a natural part of that environment. There are a lot of things that come into play and everyone in disagreement frankly is thinking too generally. I'm sorry that I'm not able to explain it well enough but again, there are plenty of books and articles and such on the subject.

Domestic dogs, on the other hand, are not really "natural" (and that exact term may not be correct) because they would not exist without human intervention. So a flea hitching a ride on a dog brought to a new area by humans is not natural. Because humans are inherently involved in that specie's arrival to a new area.

When you look at the term "native" only through the lens of human history, you get that narrow view of what a natural species is. You need to look at prehistory too. The sources linked in the wikipedia article itself go further into detail so if you only read or skimmed the article, go back and do more reading.

And I never said human intervention itself is inherently wrong. But it has historically messed with the balance of nature, literally evidenced by comparing prehistory to historical records to today's ecological trends. There is a very obvious difference between a new species arriving naturally (ie a flea on a wolf) and being able to naturalize to the environment over centuries or millenia, thus becoming native— and humans coming in, decimating native ecosystems, and bringing in non-native generalist species which are able to thrive and in some cases outcompete native species (ie autumn olive and Japanese honeysuckle here, brought over to prevent soil erosion on hillsides after cutting/burning down native trees and brush, as well as for landscaping), thus becoming naturalized or invasive. The distinction there is important. Can a species become invasive without human intervention? Probably. Have humans made it exponentially worse? Yes!

 

[ColoradoChicken89]

That guy you are talking about, was that in a forest type setting or in more open fields? Also curious what colour chickens he had?

It's an open grassy flat area near the dry riverbed. Which is like... a large underground river underneath that pumps like millions of gallons of water a second down the mountain, but on top it's just a dry riverbed (unless we get enough rain but the banks are high). It does slightly trickle on the top in certain spaces, which is why we see so many differnet animals, it's a watering spot for many.

It's probably about an acre or two of grassland in front of the house, then behind the house is just straight up a mountain cliff (so woods). Then off to the side of the house (it's a 43 acre property) it's mostly just woods, but a few little flatter grassy areas that peak out around the riverbed as natural flood areas (though the banks are tlal enough its never actually flood much).

It's got a decent little aspen grove on it, and some really tall pine trees... a few sparse bushes... but it's more just a really large open field for awhile. Then our woods don't really have many bushes or things to hide in. A few wild rasberry bushes, but htye are like 6 pathetic twigs. A few juniper bushes, but those grow too low too the ground to get in. It's mostly just really tall pine trees blocking out the sun to the forest floor.

The chickens were red and brown ones (idk what breed), some peacocks (about 8 both male/female), and some black with white spots ginea fowl. So tbh they were decently easy to spot (maybe not the chickens as much, but they were the last to go). They picked them off slowly though. Like 1 or 2 every other week during certian seasons (like mating season or when they had young).