Cheapest Dogs For Protecting Chickens?

[girliemomca]

I guess I shouldn't have posted to this thread, since I am not using my PET dog to GUARD a huge amount of chickens from which I make a living. I was only saying that my pet dog gets along fine with my chickens, as we trained him. He is never hungry, even when the chickens eat his food, as we leave a full bowl of food for him at all times. All of our animals are pets. I am coming at this from an entirely different perspective. I suppose he could possibly eat a chicken if we left him hungry for a number of days, but that is unlikely to happen. We also have children, and trained our dog to eat his food while we stuck our hands in it in order to get him used to kids getting in his way. Maybe that is why the chickens don't bother him. All this to say, training is of utmost importance.

 

[Tchib]

My solid advice would be not to get a dog if it's just going to be living out as another 'farm animal'. For that, instead, get a male turkey or a couple of geese, anything smaller than a wolf would think twice before tangling with that, they also are much more alert to hawks and eat less.
If, however, you really want a dog; get a rescue with a proven gentleness with chickens. Most dogs which accept the chickens as other members of it's pack will give their life to defend it.
Don't just make the decision based on money because the dog will suffer and if it makes a mistake (like eating eggs) because of scrimping pennies, then it might end up on the wrong side of the 'law'.

 

[centrarchid]

Handily,most folks on this forum with dogs and chickens do not earn a livelihood from chickens. They are backyard enthusiast or simply producing a small amount of eats for family and possibly friends with very little economic gain. The dogs and other livestock can make the effort more rewarding.

I keep well over a hundred chickens and use dogs, fences, cover, and natural chicken behavior to protect them. I am still a hobbyist, a very experienced with four decades of experience, but a hobbyist none the less. I also help parties that do earn livelihoods with chickens and other creatures manage predators so have an approximate handle on when dogs make economic sense.

Most people keep dogs as pets first with the guarding as a secondary benefit. This is not so bad since no dog breed is bred specifically for protecting chicken flocks that are a very different challenge to defend. Have fun and learn. I am doing such and spending money on the dogs and will keep on doing it.

edited by staff

 

[chooks4life]

All this to say, training is of utmost importance.

I very much agree, training is of utmost importance, but it's not a cure-all. It can be effectively impossible for pretty much anyone to train a Heeler-Maremma cross into being useful for either one of its parental lines' traits since it often has inextricably linked instincts instead. It's luck of the draw if the dog succeeds in either its herding or herd-guarding ancestral traits; I've not heard of one succeeding dually, and unfortunately there are many thousands of basically useless dogs with such ancestry.

About mixed breeds of working dogs, they're more often than not a prime example of exactly why specific breeds, and well bred strains at that, are the way to go for those running commercial operations.

Many pet dogs, such as your own, do very well indeed, being mixed breed isn't usually such a problem when it's not a mix of such breeds as herder and guardian which so rarely works. The only time someone should invest in a serious quality dog is when, as the OP intends, they aim to run a serious operation.

Anyone recommending a randombred dog for such an operation is not likely to find their advice respected in future, lol; the results will speak for themselves. Usually expensively and wastefully so.

Best wishes.

 

[MeepBeep]

My solid advice would be not to get a dog if it's just going to be living out as another 'farm animal'. For that, instead, get a male turkey or a couple of geese, anything smaller than a wolf would think twice before tangling with that, they also are much more alert to hawks and eat less.

The problem with using other fowl as protection is they suffer the same hunker down and freeze instinct once the sunlight diminishes, and although during the day geese/turkey will show aggression they still resort to flight as their main defense against predators... At best the bigger birds would be an early alert system for the chickens to run for cover, not offer any real defense...

In my area coyotes are probably my biggest threat (day or night) and IMO a couple of geese or turkeys is no match for a family group of coyotes on the hunt, more like a buffet table... The DNR studies in my area say the primary food for coyotes in my area early summer is Canadian goose eggs and young geese...

The presence of my three Heelers on my property alone does a great job at keeping pretty much every predator at bay, but my dogs are fenced off from my livestock most of the time... Although they come from working bloodlines they were raised pets for many years before I had livestock and during those years I broke and trained out a lot of their working ethics to make them better pets and thus I don't fully trust them around my livestock unattended right now... I'm working on that slowly as time permits and I'm hoping by summer next year I will have more faith in them unattended...

As an immediate temporary solution I picked up two llamas, and I have nothing but great things to say about them as guard animals, they do an incredible job of alerting and even going on the offensive against anything out of place... My brother came over with his dog once, and both llamas charged the fence, and if the fence wasn't there I would have feared for his dogs life and safety, the llamas were fully on the offensive and ready to attack... Also they are cheap to feed if you have the pasture land for them to graze all summer, total food cost per year for my 2 llamas and 5 goats is about $300 over the winter months... And about $100 to over seed my pastures every spring...

 

[ravenvalor]

What in particular about your current food do you like?
I am also very particular about what my dogs eat. And I have also had to feed different foods for different dogs. Diamond fits my requirements and I can also pick it up at a very good price at our feed store.
Different foods work for different dogs - mine never did well with Nutro varieties, nor the grain free options either.

Good question, I just heard that it was a good dog food. I think that I read about it on the Dog Food Lady's website. It might be dogfoodlady.com.

 

[ravenvalor]

Electric poultry fencing is expensive, but not compared to the cost of caring for one or two dogs. Mary

Is it easy to move around? I will definitely look this up. Thanks.

 

[chooks4life]

The presence of my three Heelers on my property alone does a great job at keeping pretty much every predator at bay, but my dogs are fenced off from my livestock most of the time... Although they come from working bloodlines they were raised pets for many years before I had livestock and during those years I broke and trained out a lot of their working ethics to make them better pets and thus I don't fully trust them around my livestock unattended right now... I'm working on that slowly as time permits and I'm hoping by summer next year I will have more faith in them unattended...

Just a random bit of info on Heelers and poultry... Many breeders exclusively breed for sheep/cattle/similar herders, and at no point allow their dogs to access any other livestock, precisely because they do kill them.

Not all do, obviously, and not all breeders tolerate that, but many I've known just accept that the herding instinct is modified hunting instinct and if the animal is small enough it's not likely that the herding will end well for it. Of course, those who don't accept that have a higher ratio of having non-poultry-killing dogs.

But most herding dogs I've known, Collie or Kelpy or Heeler, are death to chickens, and not only that, they basically have an obsession with birds of all types, but especially larger ones. And most of their owners/breeders don't really mind so much because they're more focused on the livestock that pay the bills, which they keep the dogs specifically for the management of, being of course larger livestock.

Anyway, sounds like you've got a plan for yours, good luck with them.

Best wishes.

 

[centrarchid]

Some of us use dogs a very different backgrounds genetically to do work that no breed was developed for. No breed was developed for guarding chickens. For dog to be successful with chickens, it must operate very differently than with large mobile herds of sheep or goats where dog defends a tight herd that moves. With chickens, the dog must guard the area the chickens forage and its perimeter which means the dog guards the territory / area rather than than the actual birds. This does not preclude the dog responding to alarms produced by the birds. Most dog breeds retain the the capacity for defending the territory. Even with breeds prone to / developed for herding, that behavioral switch can turned on or off in accordance with need the animals potentially herded and can also be trained so only certain species are herded such as work sheep but leave cattle alone.

I have employed hounds formally tasked with hunting raccoons or foxes pelt industry with a secondary task of protecting the area used by chickens (and other livestock in livery yard) over many years and now use bird dogs that are more sight oriented and faster to do same. As with most people, most predators I am concerned about are small and quick but not willing to stand and fight even a medium sized dog. The larger threats are excluded with fences. The same fences are a must even with chickens to contain the typical LGD's since they do not bond to chickens and will roam off mission if given the opportunity. The use of dogs to guard chickens needs to be kept in the context of guarding chickens rather than ideals for guarding / herding livestock which may or may not be involved.

To OP, look into general purpose farm breeds such as English Shepherds. Contact parties that have first hand experience using them around the farmstead and have done so with multiple dogs over many years. Parties that have tried other dog breeds in parallel are even better as they can made comparisons that are more trustworthy. Some you will find use them only as companions or for guarding home and barnyard. Others will use them for herding and some of those will have dogs that can do all reasonably well. You will also find fences are very important as well as good dog management practices which are not hard to master. Take your time and be very thorough in your explorations because the dog(s) chosen, regardless of breeding, will be a long-term expenditure that will impose upon you the need for good dog management practices. In the end you will find the actual husbandry of the guardian will be more demanding than its acquisition.

 

[chooks4life]

Contact parties that have first hand experience using them around the farmstead and have done so with multiple dogs over many years.

That's just what the OP has done here.

But, if you mean off-line 'parties', then yes, that would be better than trying to get an education from people who only have claims to go off, but no proof to support those claims.

I gather from the vague inferences in some of your posts (one now edited) that perhaps this is something that concerns you?

Unfortunately, it's just the nature of the internet and discussion medium, after all this is not one of those websites where people have to prove they work for a verifiable institute or similar before being granted acceptance.

Nobody using the internet constantly cites exhaustive and verifiable sources to somehow prove their opinions and statements, really only a few people attempt to do so (lol!) but it does absolutely nothing for their credibility except within their own mind; nevertheless arbitrarily believing that anyone without proof of claims is a liar merely shows the disbeliever is possibly paranoid or delusional.

While you and I, and many others, have very differing experiences and beliefs, I don't discredit yours nor assume anyone here is a liar just because their beliefs/experiences directly contradict my own. I believe everyone here has information of value to offer, even the very newbie 'parties', and it's unfortunate that some take offense at anyone sharing an experience that seems to contradict their own. Not accusing you of that, mind, just making a general note on how most multi-thread disagreements start: with non-acceptance of, or attacking of, differing experiences. The world isn't black and white, there are many answers to a given question.

Online 'parties' necessarily operate on benefit of the doubt, even when (for a random example), someone claims they're employed as a chicken-trainer/behavioralist with only one success case in their entire multi-decade career wherein they finally managed to get a now-ancient chicken to change its behavior virtually on its deathbed. In which case, was it senility and decrepitude that changed the behavior, or training?

...I'm joking and exaggerating, as should be very obvious, but I will state it plainly just to be sure people know.

To be honest I don't disbelieve anyone on BYC; I have no sound reason to. The above example is a pretty good one to illustrate how a negative perception bias against a 'party' can seem to support an actually baseless suspicion that said 'party' is talking BS. It remains all just in one's head and has no bearing on reality.

Being free of such unsupported biases does much for the community not to mention one's own mental health.

(All these parties! Such fun).

Best wishes. And I do mean that, it's not some arbitrary by-line.