Chicken Breeds vs Chicken Types.

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Humm very interesting, so bloodlines for birds is more who created them, vs the acutally parents of birds?

Usually, there are certain cases where it will say "The line started from a cock who won best variety five times, show champ twice, " etc. Or from a "Little blue hen, who was perfect in every aspect crossed over such and such cock." But even then, that would take a lot of time to explain step-by-step genealogy. If someone were to tell me my line started from "Big blue" (not an actual name, just using an example), I have no idea what that means since I didn't have personal experience with the bird. But if someone were to say it started from Jim Zook, who got it from Horst Schmudde, who imported the line from Japan from such and such breeder.. Even if I don't know the Japanese breeder, I know both Jim Zook and Horst Schmudde bred very good birds, so therefore I can trust my lines I say.

Now, there are breeders who do keep records of what birds are used in the breeding. But most of the time, this isn't a big issue. I can walk out on my yard and if you asked about a bird I personally bred, then I can tell you "Yes, he is out of (insert hen here, and if parent bird purchased from another breeder) I received from -" and if I know it "Who is the daughter/son of that cock/hen that they won best of breed with, at the show in (insert year)." etc.. It's just if you know that much info.

-Daniel

I gotchya.

 

[punky rooster]

I have some buckeyes that I am sure have some RIR in them and I have a buckeye cockerel that is a pure buckeye from one of the oldest lines of buckeyes. There is a big difference between them the RIR mixed birds have wrong under color and way too much black coloring on them and bad shape on the males also a SC gene. the pure buckeye is much better much less black color on him great under color and shape.

Iknow lildinkem has shown a mix orp as a NH and not gotten DQ.
I guess It depends if it has major faults

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Like that's my point, so then it's a NH Type birds not a "NH" because it's not 100% NH

(What is a NH any ways lol

)

 

[Chris09]

Quote:

There is a big difference between them the RIR mixed birds have wrong under color and way too much black coloring

The R.I. Red and the Buckeye have the same under color............ Red.
Since both breeds are Columbian Red they should have black in all the same spots. (Tail, and Wings)

I think a lot of people/ breeders would be surprised just how much R.I. Red blood runs through a Buckeye. Remember there was a Pea Combed R.I. Red (do to the Lt. Brahma) at one time and when the Buckeye was interned into the SoP a lot of the Pea Combed R.I. Red were bred, showed and sold as Buckeyes.

Chris​

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:

There is a big difference between them the RIR mixed birds have wrong under color and way too much black coloring

The R.I. Red and the Buckeye have the same under color............ Red.
Since both breeds are Columbian Red they should have black in all the same spots. (Tail, and Wings)

I think a lot of people/ breeders would be surprised just how much R.I. Red blood runs through a Buckeye. Remember there was a Pea Combed R.I. Red (do to the Lt. Brahma) at one time and when the Buckeye was interned into the SoP a lot of the Pea Combed R.I. Red were bred, showed and sold as Buckeyes.

Chris​

NO buckeyes have slate undercolor (should at least)
Mine have bad pea combs black breast area and shanks

 

[Chris09]

Quote:

There is a big difference between them the RIR mixed birds have wrong under color and way too much black coloring

The R.I. Red and the Buckeye have the same under color............ Red.
Since both breeds are Columbian Red they should have black in all the same spots. (Tail, and Wings)

I think a lot of people/ breeders would be surprised just how much R.I. Red blood runs through a Buckeye. Remember there was a Pea Combed R.I. Red (do to the Lt. Brahma) at one time and when the Buckeye was interned into the SoP a lot of the Pea Combed R.I. Red were bred, showed and sold as Buckeyes.

Chris​

NO buckeyes have slate undercolor (should at least)
Mine have bad pea combs black breast area and shanks

Check your standard..

Under color of all sections: Red, except for Black which should show a bar of Slate.

So that would mean that the Red plumage should have Red Under Color and Black feathers should have Black Under color with a barring of Slate.

The Black in the breast and on the shanks isn't from R.I. Reds. R.I. Red have Red breasts and Yellow shanks with some Red to them..


Chris

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:

The R.I. Red and the Buckeye have the same under color............ Red.
Since both breeds are Columbian Red they should have black in all the same spots. (Tail, and Wings)

I think a lot of people/ breeders would be surprised just how much R.I. Red blood runs through a Buckeye. Remember there was a Pea Combed R.I. Red (do to the Lt. Brahma) at one time and when the Buckeye was interned into the SoP a lot of the Pea Combed R.I. Red were bred, showed and sold as Buckeyes.

Chris

NO buckeyes have slate undercolor (should at least)
Mine have bad pea combs black breast area and shanks

Check your standard..

Under color of all sections: Red, except for Black which should show a bar of Slate.

So that would mean that the Red plumage should have Red Under Color and Black feathers should have Black Under color with a barring of Slate.

The Black in the breast and on the shanks isn't from R.I. Reds. R.I. Red have Red breasts and Yellow shanks with some Red to them..


Chris

IDK I'm not using them any way

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
Check your standard..

Under color of all sections: Red, except for Black which should show a bar of Slate.

So that would mean that the Red plumage should have Red Under Color and Black feathers should have Black Under color with a barring of Slate.

The Black in the breast and on the shanks isn't from R.I. Reds. R.I. Red have Red breasts and Yellow shanks with some Red to them..


Chris

IDK I'm not using them any way

I have to correct myself --
This -
Under color of all sections: Red, except for Black which should show a bar of Slate.

To this -
Under color of all sections: Red, except for Back which should show a bar of Slate.
So that would mean that the Red plumage should have Red Under Color except for Back feathers and they should have Red Under color with a barring of Slate.

Sorry about that..

Chris

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
Like that's my point, so then it's a NH Type birds not a "NH" because it's not 100% NH

(What is a NH any ways lol

)

NH = New Hampshire

 

[cgmccary]

In regards to RIR vs. Buckeye, the color pattern (Columbian Red) is about the only thing they should have in common.

BODY TYPE: The body type is very different. A Buckeye should have a modified (1900) Cornish shape and when viewed, it presents a SQUARE shape. The RIR is a longer body and presents a RECTANGULAR shape. The backs are different in length and thickness. The placement of the legs and how the breast sits is different.

COLOR: The color of the Buckeye is a MAHOGANY BAY which is a different "red" than the RIR (I am at work & do not have my SOP in front of me but the RIR is a deep, lustrous RED -- this is very different from a Buckeye's MAHOGANY BAY). Last weekend, I showed three male Buckeyes at the NE Georgia Poultry Fanciers Association Show in Jefferson, GA and my Buckeye cockerel was the American Class Champion. The Reserve American Champion was a Rose -comb RIR. I would love to have taken everyone who think the "red" should be similar from my Buckeye Cockerel to the RIR Cockerel to demonstrate the distinct color difference -- my cockerel won mostly because his color was outstanding-- the best I have seen in my birds & the RIR at the show (whoever he belonged to) had proper RIR color.

LEGS: The RIR stands on thinner legs. The Buckeyes are thick and stout and for some Buckeye breeders, they are shorter. I like to say a "taller Cornish leg" for a Buckeye.

The lineage is different. I think both breeds had Barred Rock in common (in their origins), but I am not sure there is much else in common. It is unclear what BB Red Game male that Ms. Metcalf used in her development of the Buckeye but we're sure it was Asiatic. The leghorn was used in the development of the RIR. The "Pea-Comb RIR" name given to early Buckeyes was a semantic thing where Ms. Metcalf was attempting to popularize her breed which she developed separate and apart (without knowledge) of the RIR's creation in the East. Nowhere in her writings does Ms. Metcalf mention RIR in the creation of the Buckeye. Ms. Metcalf traded some eggs with the RIR breeders. The Buckeye was a darker bird than the original RIR creation.

Ms. Metcalf noticed that wild birds had an undercolor of slate or gray in the undercolor -- Nature's way of enhancing the outside color. Ms. Metcalf bred her Buckeyes for a slate bar in the back as an undercolor (and at one point in 1905 or 1910, a Salmon undercolor was acceptable also -- I will have to check my old SOPs at home.) This slate bar was to enhance the outer mahogany bay color. When bred in correctly, it is a beautiful bird.

There are some folks who are breeding a Production line of Buckeyes to lay lots of eggs like hatchery stock variety. This has produced a Buckeye with a more rectangular body which looks more and more like a RIR. It does not necessarily mean that it has RIR in it. Instead, it is what one would expect from breeding to make a egg laying breed vs. a dual purpose breed that leans more toward a "meat bird." There is no doubt that in some lines, either Cornish, Chantecler (in one line) or RIR have been outcrossed generations ago to shore up the genetics. This is most often seen in lines that throw a Single Comb Buckeye every once in awhile like a RIR. I am not debating this has occurred. I have not had the Single Comb phenomenon occur in my Buckeyes. My original Buckeye stock came from Duane Urch who'd bred Buckeyes for 50+ years and acquired his stock from a man in Florida in the 1950s (whose name I have at home). Duane told me himself he had not outcrossed his Buckeyes with anything else. The Florida man's Buckeyes could be traced back to the originator of the breed.