Chicken necropsy (graphic images) - liver failure / internal bleeding - what is the cause?

[coach723]

For the eggshells, eggshells alone may not provide enough calcium (there is some in layer feed, but needs can vary greatly bird to bird and season to season). I mix my saved shells 50/50 with crushed oyster shell and offer them all the time in separate feeders, I have 40 birds, so I have several in various places. That way it is available all the time and those that need it can take it when they want.
Feed is a complicated discussion. This post in this thread, see post #4, does a good job in short space on the fat question:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-much-fat-is-too-much-in-layer-ration.1648803/
My personal experience is that excess carbs have been the worst cause in a large number of cases. A lot of corn, scratch grains, and sunflower seeds can do it. And "a lot" is actually very little, they are small. Greens generally don't contribute to fat, but too much of anything upsets a delicate balance and can cause problems. And some greens can affect calcium absorption. Any time they fill up on one thing, they don't eat their feed. I did see on your early post they list ingredients from sunflowers, so I assume they mean seeds, since they do not specify. When you have larger bodied birds that are that way naturally, weight is a particular concern. Some other breeds are more naturally lean, and they also seem to be the same birds that are more active. Which came first..... I don't know. And genetically prone birds are just going to more easily pack the fat on. That is why so many posts say over and over, don't give any treats that make up more than 10% of the total diet. And that is why whole grain feeds do not work for all birds. Some birds are fine, some birds will only pick out certain parts they like. I would not worry about insects they find free ranging, those are a natural diet and should be fine. I have always free fed, they take what they need, and if treats are kept to a bare minimum, I've never had a problem. Mine are outside all day and finding whatever bugs are out there, along with occasional frogs, lizards and mice. With the birds I have had that got fat, I don't hatch from them so as to not pass that particular trait on to chicks. Honestly, those ones have tended to have shorter lives. My batch of black sex links I think there were only 2 that made it to 3 years old. There are always exceptions, big birds can live a long time to. There are SO many variables. And there isn't anything you can do about genetics. I have changed feed brands before, when my birds were having issues, and sometimes the feed did make a difference. Same feed others use and are happy with. Different birds. No flock is exactly the same as another, again, too many variables. Don't be afraid to try different brands, or even rotate brands or formulas a little so they get a little variety over time. There is no one right answer, it's what you have available and what works for your birds. I feed an all flock or grower feed instead of layer, in the 18-20% protein range. I have mixed ages (some quite old) and roosters, so I don't want them all being forced to consume the calcium in layer feed. I have almost no shell quality issues since they have access to the separate calcium.

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

Look at picture three, right mid. Several other views, similar. Looks to me like evidence of past ruptures/bleeds. Should also find evidence of kidney damage once you get to the wall, and the heart, I would expect, will be almost completely enrobed in yellow, with perhaps the bottom 1/4 exposed (educated guess, I've never let one of my birds get this fat, don't have first hand experience)

Hello, I have circled what I believe is the heart (if that is in the right position of the heart?). I wasn't able to see the kidneys

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

For the eggshells, eggshells alone may not provide enough calcium (there is some in layer feed, but needs can vary greatly bird to bird and season to season). I mix my saved shells 50/50 with crushed oyster shell and offer them all the time in separate feeders, I have 40 birds, so I have several in various places. That way it is available all the time and those that need it can take it when they want.
Feed is a complicated discussion. This post in this thread, see post #4, does a good job in short space on the fat question:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-much-fat-is-too-much-in-layer-ration.1648803/
My personal experience is that excess carbs have been the worst cause in a large number of cases. A lot of corn, scratch grains, and sunflower seeds can do it. And "a lot" is actually very little, they are small. Greens generally don't contribute to fat, but too much of anything upsets a delicate balance and can cause problems. And some greens can affect calcium absorption. Any time they fill up on one thing, they don't eat their feed. I did see on your early post they list ingredients from sunflowers, so I assume they mean seeds, since they do not specify. When you have larger bodied birds that are that way naturally, weight is a particular concern. Some other breeds are more naturally lean, and they also seem to be the same birds that are more active. Which came first..... I don't know. And genetically prone birds are just going to more easily pack the fat on. That is why so many posts say over and over, don't give any treats that make up more than 10% of the total diet. And that is why whole grain feeds do not work for all birds. Some birds are fine, some birds will only pick out certain parts they like. I would not worry about insects they find free ranging, those are a natural diet and should be fine. I have always free fed, they take what they need, and if treats are kept to a bare minimum, I've never had a problem. Mine are outside all day and finding whatever bugs are out there, along with occasional frogs, lizards and mice. With the birds I have had that got fat, I don't hatch from them so as to not pass that particular trait on to chicks. Honestly, those ones have tended to have shorter lives. My batch of black sex links I think there were only 2 that made it to 3 years old. There are always exceptions, big birds can live a long time to. There are SO many variables. And there isn't anything you can do about genetics. I have changed feed brands before, when my birds were having issues, and sometimes the feed did make a difference. Same feed others use and are happy with. Different birds. No flock is exactly the same as another, again, too many variables. Don't be afraid to try different brands, or even rotate brands or formulas a little so they get a little variety over time. There is no one right answer, it's what you have available and what works for your birds. I feed an all flock or grower feed instead of layer, in the 18-20% protein range. I have mixed ages (some quite old) and roosters, so I don't want them all being forced to consume the calcium in layer feed. I have almost no shell quality issues since they have access to the separate calcium.

Hello! Thank you for that. I forgot to mention I also give them shell grit for calcium. But because she was on the bottom of the pecking order, I gather she always had less of something. Her shells weren’t overly soft, but they definitely weren’t as hard as those on the top of the pecking order.

She laid the largest eggs out of all chickens, at around 62-65g (But she is a French Marans who lays large anyway).

I will look a bit more into this feed, and contact the manufacturer about the carbohydrate content too, as it is not listed.


**

Also, I purchased my chicks from two different breeders/sellers.

I got my easter eggers from a boutique breeder who prides herself in breeding healthy genetics, and I have had no problems with any of those birds from this breeder, thus far.

My French marans, I got from a second breeder who runs a much bigger operation with 30+ different breeds and lots of birds. I’ve had many different health-related deaths from the batch of chicks I got from her. I wonder if perhaps this breeder does not take care as much when it comes to breeding for good genetics, and that can be the cause of being predisposed to various health issues.

In other words, can chickens get health issues that easily if careful breeding doesn’t happen?

 

[NatJ]

In the attached photo, I have circled in white what I believe is the gizzard?

The circled part looks like the gizzard to me.

After I flipped that over to the right side, I believe that's where I found that 'friable part' that NatJ circled. In real life, I'd describe it like mince meat covered in creamy sauce.

Yes, that would be about the right place to find the liver.

Also, I have attached a photo of my hen on the morning she died. She indeed looked completely healthy. I only had one French marans and when I google images, they seem to look like large/fat looking birds. I agree she must have died from fatty liver, but curious does she look fatter than she should be? (In case I got another french marans one day, I'd like to be able to judge their weight before anything bad happens).

Unfortunately, because of the way hens store fat inside their bodies, they do not look fat even when they are. Because of the way feathers cover them, they also do not look thin when they are underweight.

You could weigh hens and keep track of it (maybe every month or a few times a year or something like that.) That would let you have some idea if they are gaining or losing weight. Hens do change weight depending on whether they are laying or not (broodiness or molting cause the big reproductive system to shrink down much smaller, and there are no big egg yolks either.)

You could try feeling the abdomen. Since fat tends to accumulate just under the skin there, it may be possible to make an educated guess about the amount of fat based on how it feels. Of course that will still not tell about the fat surrounding internal organs, but it might at least provide some information rather than none.

• Question: Should I stop giving all day access to feed and start measuring out daily quantities so they don’t overeat?

Probably not.

First, that means you need to know the correct amount each day. Their needs change depending on whether they are laying (more food) or the weather (cold means they need some extra food).

Second, the top hens will eat more than their share (so they may still get fat), and that will mean the lower-ranking hens do not get enough. It is possible to provide food in a way that all hens can eat at once, which keeps the lower ranking hens from going hungry.

Third, it changes how they act. When the food is limited, then as soon as you give it to them, they will start to eat as if they are starving. Sometimes this actually causes the chickens to eat more, because they are trying to stock up for the "deprivation" that is coming (when they are between mealtimes.)

More exercise: I am letting go of my fear of predators a bit and allowing them to free range in the garden.

• Question: they previously had an enclosed run of approx 11sqm for 6-8 birds, with perches to fly on and a deep litter run for scratching. Was that not enough space for good exercise?
• Question: I let them free range with supervision yesterday and all they did was scratch the ground like they do while in the run (but perhaps in the run sometimes they sat and rested). I guess they get more exercise because when they need to eat, drink or lay, they have to walk further distances to get back into the run to do so? But other than that they just do the same activities it seems.

When you let the hens out to range, they do walk further than if they stay in the run. They might also spend more time foraging and less time napping, because there are more interesting things to forage for in the bigger space.

But I think you are probably right that the difference is not very big.

Less treats: I’m no dietitian so..

• Question: can too many greens cause obesity? As when I give them greens, sometimes I give them quite a bit. I had read that chickens were good at monitoring their caloric intake so I thought they would stop when they are full)

I would not expect greens to cause obesity.

• Question: I noticed when I free ranged them they were eating lots and lots of bugs - can this lead to obesity?

Maybe, because bugs often are high in fat (calories).
Maybe not, because the hens are more active trying to get those bugs.

If they free range regularly, they may not find as many bugs every time.

I think most people figure that free-ranging chickens generally do not get enough extra calories to be a problem, when you consider the extra exercise.

• Question: can too many crushed eggshells in one day be bad? I feed their eggshells crushed back to them, but I don’t do it everyday, instead I do it maybe every fortnight when I get a good amount and I put it in a bowl and usually they eat most of it up in two days.

If you are worried about them eating too many eggshells at one time, you can start giving the shells back to the chickens every day, so they get less at once.

It is generally best to provide a calcium source all the time, whether it is eggshells or oyster shell or something else of the sort, rather than large amounts at longer intervals. If the layer feed has enough calcium, the hens do not need extra anyway. If the layer feed does not have enough calcium, the hens need extra every day, not every fortnight or so.

Edit: I see you addressed this while I was typing.

I forgot to mention I also give them shell grit for calcium.

That sounds good.
[End of edit.]

• They honestly don’t get many other treats so I’m thinking perhaps it’s the enclosed run not providing enough exercise space?

The amount of exercise, or the feed, could be contributing factors. Or it could just be genetics.

There are some chickens that really will get too fat unless their feed is very strictly limited, no matter how much exercise they are allowed to get. Cornish Cross meat chickens are an extreme example of that.

There are some other chickens that never seem to get fat, no matter what foods they are allowed to eat. Some of the traditional lightweight laying breeds seem to have this trait.

Through much of history, a chicken that was able to store up fat would be more likely to survive seasons with less food, and would have the ability to go broody and hatch eggs without herself dying of starvation. Now that domestic chickens usually do not have times of year with little food, and often do not go broody, they have no need to store extra fat. But some of them still have the genetic ability to store up fat like that.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You can't visually score a bird's "fattyness" - or at least, after years, I can't do it, and I am regularly poking around inside my birds. Even "condition scoring" is still a struggle for me, with bird in hand.

Yes, could be heart in that photo, its so heavily shadowed hard to be certain, or judge much. [EDIT] Also the orientation seems "off" to me. [/edit]

For future reference.

 

[coach723]

The only real way to gauge their weight is to pick them up and feel their body condition. If they have a lot of abdominal fat you can sometimes feel it below the vent between the legs. How prominent or well muscled the keel bone is, is also a good indication.

I have an older brahma hen, a larger heavier bird. She LOOKS fine, but if I pick her up I can feel that she is thin. Feathers hide all kinds of things, so feeling them and weighing them regularly (if you have a bird you are questioning) is the best way to monitor. Always with normal breed characteristics in mind. The keel bone on an EE is always going to be more prominent than the keel on a heavier bodied (naturally) bird. Breed and breeding really does make a difference. Heritage breeds (not bred to lay more and more eggs) that are raised by reputable breeders who are breeding for the good of the breed and those standards tend to be healthier over all and live longer. They are also harder to find and tend to cost a bit (or a lot) more.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and your feed seems fine, from the numbers it discloses - if there are nutritional issues, it is from the other things being added to their diets (not the greens - not a significant fat/carb source unless you are feeding artichoke hearts and avocados? No? I thought not). and available exercise. A bird that free ranges can take in a lot more dietary energy daily w/o consequence than one that is kept, and a kept bird's capacity for exercise is directly proportional to his or her available space. Much as a professional athlete needs a lot more calories daily than I do [and it shows]!

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

and your feed seems fine, from the numbers it discloses - if there are nutritional issues, it is from the other things being added to their diets (not the greens - not a significant fat/carb source unless you are feeding artichoke hearts and avocados? No? I thought not). and available exercise. A bird that free ranges can take in a lot more dietary energy daily w/o consequence than one that is kept, and a kept bird's capacity for exercise is directly proportional to his or her available space. Much as a professional athlete needs a lot more calories daily than I do [and it shows]!

Yes I don't think it is the feed, because it's a top brand from Australia.

I don't feel artichoke hearts and avocados. Mainly leafy vegetable greens (Asian greens, parsley, lettuce, oregano) and weeds (oxalis, chickweed, dandelion, thistle) from my garden. Based on the replies above, I feel the most likely issue is a mix of 1) lack of exercise x 2) genetics x 3) the bird's demeanour herself. She generally was more calm and scratched less than others.

I have started free ranging them as of yesterday. I just want to check, for a 10sqm enclosed run (it's a 3x3 Omlet run + 2x1 Cube run attached, and I just calculated it is 10sqm total), how many chickens maximum would you keep, if they only get to sometimes free range, and still have them have enough exercise?

 

[NatJ]

Hello, I have circled what I believe is the heart (if that is in the right position of the heart?).

I think that is the heart. That is about the right place, way up in the ribcage.

I wasn't able to see the kidneys

I cannot see them either, but I never have been good at finding chicken kidneys. I have no trouble finding kidneys when I butcher a mammal (rabbits are similar to chickens in size, and their kidneys are easy for me to find.)

My French marans, I got from a second breeder who runs a much bigger operation with 30+ different breeds and lots of birds. I’ve had many different health-related deaths from the batch of chicks I got from her. I wonder if perhaps this breeder does not take care as much when it comes to breeding for good genetics, and that can be the cause of being predisposed to various health issues.

In other words, can chickens get health issues that easily if careful breeding doesn’t happen?

I would say sometimes yes, sometimes no. A lot depends on what birds they started with, and many generations they have been raising those birds.

If either breeder just started, you would mostly be seeing differences from where they got their stock, rather than from their own breeding practices.

A funny thing is that big hatcheries in the USA often produce healthy chicks, especially for the more common breeds. I have assumed the reason is practicality: they are not willing to fuss with any chicken that has special needs, so the ones with poor health do not survive long enough to breed.

Some small breeders can produce chickens with poor health, because they are focusing on something else (better egg color, or better feather color, or something else.) Sometimes the poor health is actually related to what they are selecting (fast growth rate or high laying rate can cause poor health), other times they just make a choice of the less-healthy bird because it has other traits that make it "better" for their breeding program.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes I don't think it is the feed, because it's a top brand from Australia.

I don't feel artichoke hearts and avocados. Mainly leafy vegetable greens (Asian greens, parsley, lettuce, oregano) and weeds (oxalis, chickweed, dandelion, thistle) from my garden. Based on the replies above, I feel the most likely issue is a mix of 1) lack of exercise x 2) genetics x 3) the bird's demeanour herself. She generally was more calm and scratched less than others.

I have started free ranging them as of yesterday. I just want to check, for a 10sqm enclosed run (it's a 3x3 Omlet run + 2x1 Cube run attached, and I just calculated it is 10sqm total), how many chickens maximum would you keep, if they only get to sometimes free range, and still have them have enough exercise?

10sqm is 103sqft, give or take. That's 10 birds, max, using the 10sq ft/bird rule. I think that's not enough sq ft/bd personally - but 10sq ft / bd is the thumb rule minimum. I'm getting ready to set up a new 30 x 40 (foot) fenced area to offer some protection to 25 birds. That's almost 50sq ft/bd and I feel badly about containing them - just not as badly as I feel about possums nabbing them as they sleep. So I'm giving them options.

The best rule is to give them as much room as you reasonably can.