Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[galanie]

I guess I'm just a bit anal (LOL) when it comes to this. I want to know just how long Permethrin stays active and how long until it breaks down. I've been unable to find that information anywhere. It's a known with Pyrethrin which I've had amazing results with. I have to say I haven't had nearly the successes I've had with Permethrin. The difference for me now is, that real Pyrethrin is nearly impossible to find at a halfway reasonable price.

Sarah,

It's that residual effect with permethrin that gives success. No matter how much you shake and bake, and spray your birds, you are going to miss a few mites on them, and in the coop in the deep cracks. The residuals will knock those out. Pyrethrin only lasts 24 hours, less in direct sun. That's why I use PERMETHRIN. No bugs here. My wrens are happy and healthy too!

Understood. You are absolutely right about that. For treating the birds it's great stuff and I can see where the residual action is a good thing rather than anything to be concerned about regarding care for our birds. I apologize for not making my motive clear on this one.

I'm wanting to know just how long that residual effect stays not for chickens but for the garden though. I've actually never had a reason to use it on my birds except under the bird cage tray where moths like to try and lay eggs sometimes. Doesn't hurt the cockatiels at all I know. And it if doesn't hurt them, I seriously doubt it'll hurt any other birds. BUT. For the few times I need to use it in the garden, I want to be sure I know how long that effect lasts. I just don't want to eat the stuff. With pyrethrin, I know for fact that after 24 hours, it's chemically inert and knocks bugs out quick.

Also there is the question of it hurting soil organisms we do want, like earthworms and beneficial nematodes. With Pyrethrin, it's inert so quickly that it likely won't damage them. But with permethrin, put enough on, and it if stays stable for like say a week, and you till or water heavily then it's going down there and killing them. Probably it would take a lot to really do it, I don't know. But I would like to find out.

This has been wordy but here's why I'm so concerned: Pyrethrin is the only way I can rid my vegetable garden of an ant bed. And to do so, I have to drive rods down in that bed and pour the stuff in there quickly and as much as I can get. BANG the ants are dead and soon the chemical is inert and all the good critters can go about their way repopulating that area. I fear this is not the case if I use permethrin the same way. I have done it, and that area still seems rather "sterile" to me. Don't like it.

 

[galanie]

BTW, turkey had very good flavor, a little dry white meat but not much. Dark was fine. We need to get better at smoking poultry cause I like it that way a lot. Not much leftover, was very popular among the folks there. Hardly any left to take home.

That looks DELICIOUS!

 

[normanack]

That looks DELICIOUS!

The turkey looks good, too!
;-)

 

[galanie]

The turkey looks good, too!
;-)

 

[KnobbyOaks]

laughing. Won't Dimioutritious (sp?) earth food grade keep the mites away?


BTW sick chick is sick again. I think full blown body yeast infection was the original illness and this bout of antibiotics for the cough -caughing chicken -made it way worse.
I will help cull her early next week. She has been a lot of trouble and this cannoto keep going on. Of course I offered to help cull before but its a tough decision. I'm glad its not one of mine.


Would that be a gleet case? Yeast infection?

L

BTW, turkey had very good flavor, a little dry white meat but not much. Dark was fine. We need to get better at smoking poultry cause I like it that way a lot. Not much leftover, was very popular among the folks there. Hardly any left to take home.

Looks like a lovely huge kitchen to work in BUT now you've piqued my curiosity. What does the sign above the kitchen faucet say, circled and all?

That turkey breast looks great and not dry. I wonder what would have been the difference if you had rested the turkey for 2-3 days before cooking or freezing; if it would have been moister.

Edit: P.S. Okay, just realized after re-reading that that's probably not your kitchen.

 

[normanack]

Looks like a lovely huge kitchen to work in . . .
Edit:  P.S. Okay, just realized after re-reading that that's probably not your kitchen.

What I wouldn't give for a great big sink like that in my own house . . .

 

[thedragonlady]

Understood. You are absolutely right about that. For treating the birds it's great stuff and I can see where the residual action is a good thing rather than anything to be concerned about regarding care for our birds. I apologize for not making my motive clear on this one.
I'm wanting to know just how long that residual effect stays not for chickens but for the garden though. I've actually never had a reason to use it on my birds except under the bird cage tray where moths like to try and lay eggs sometimes. Doesn't hurt the cockatiels at all I know. And it if doesn't hurt them, I seriously doubt it'll hurt any other birds. BUT. For the few times I need to use it in the garden, I want to be sure I know how long that effect lasts. I just don't want to eat the stuff. With pyrethrin, I know for fact that after 24 hours, it's chemically inert and knocks bugs out quick.
Also there is the question of it hurting soil organisms we do want, like earthworms and beneficial nematodes. With Pyrethrin, it's inert so quickly that it likely won't damage them. But with permethrin, put enough on, and it if stays stable for like say a week, and you till or water heavily then it's going down there and killing them. Probably it would take a lot to really do it, I don't know. But I would like to find out.
This has been wordy but here's why I'm so concerned: Pyrethrin is the only way I can rid my vegetable garden of an ant bed. And to do so, I have to drive rods down in that bed and pour the stuff in there quickly and as much as I can get. BANG the ants are dead and soon the chemical is inert and all the good critters can go about their way repopulating that area. I fear this is not the case if I use permethrin the same way. I have done it, and that area still seems rather "sterile" to me. Don't like it.

Sarah,

I've never had a problem with permethrin killing my worms, though I use it very rarely in my garden. When I bought this old carriage house 23 years ago, the property consisted of sand to 30 feet deep, with scrub trees, wisteria...as in a Tarzan movie...and smilax vines as the understory to some magnificent old trees.Basically nothing had been done to it since the Korean War. There were mosquitos breeding in the fallen magnolia leaves, and many fire ant mounds, but no benefical insects. I hacked out the jungle by hand, and mulched everything with as much manure as I could get my hands on. I bought worms to get them started here, as there were none...not one !

I have never sent a leaf, or small twig to a landfill. They are all used as mulch. I now have 4-6 inches of black top soil all over, with topsoil / mulch 14" deep under all the Hydrangeas, and Azaleas. The worms are my friends. I have had to use permethrin on some azaleas for the yearly fall caterpillar infestation, but have never seen any worm kill. They are thriving, as are the lady bugs, and praying mantises, and honey bees. I think if Permethrin is used judiciously; it is the safest chemical I can use, that really works.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Galanie, here is an interesting article on the life of Pyrethroids/ Pyrethrins. How long they last depends not only on where they are (sunlight, water, shade) but also which specific formulations you are talking about.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/toxic/pyrethroid.php

To me any poison kills, whether organic or not. Like I think theDragonLady does, I try real hard not to use any of them in my garden. But I try to match specific poisons with specific pests on specific plants and try to avoid over-use when I use them. I think dosage is quite important in residual effects.

I probably use poison maybe four to five times a season in the garden. If I don't do something flea beetles kill my eggplant. I usually have one huge infestation of blister beetles a year. They congregate like an army and totally destroy what they attack each year, but they attack different things each year. This year tomatoes. Last year chard. Some things I don't try to understand, just accept what I see.

If I time the spraying just right, I can knock out the cabbage moth caterpillars just as cabbage and broccoli are heading, so I spray them before the part I eat grows. I use that same strategy with my kale, again against the cabbage moth caterpillars. When they attack the kale, I strip every leaf off leaving only the buds and feed those leaves to the chickens. Then I spray the buds. This allows me to harvest a couple of meals' worth or freeze some kale before I just give up and rip them out to interrupt the life cycle of the cabbage moths.

I suggest you look at that article to get a feel for what you are using, but watch your dosage and try to not use it just before a rain. Don't water to wash it down into the soil until sunlight has a chance to knock out some of the residual effects.

 

[Pozees]

Ugh, flea beetles have been my worst enemy the last few years, and can (have) destroy entire beds of sprouted seedlings in a day or two. One year they did their best to completely de-leaf a willow tree. They are terrible and indiscriminate little beasts. I seem unable to anticipate their appearance, which I swear is earlier each year - what have you found works best against them?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I spray with wettable Sevin. I do not use the powder. I'm sure the Pyrethroids/ Pyrethrins would work too.