Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[Arielle]

I knew I risked many oposing opionions, I like to learn from different views and then ask more questions to further understand. At this point I will just acknowledge that this has resulted in an interesting discussion.

I see a couple of things.

Purebreds-- what defines a purebred? At what point is a line regarded as reproducing itself sufficiently to have set genes that generally remain constant. Inbreeding Coefficient, as presented in cattle and horses, indicates that , at a high level, many problems may start to show up.

I suspect in show dogs ( I only get purebreds because their genetics are set) the focus has not been practical goals in selection. More a fashion statement, and conseqently the look and movement of the dog has out weighed health, intelligence, and the like. With the high volume of chicks, a stricter selection method can be applied. WOuld this account for the diference?Is it likely that old lines have been selected for so long that most genetic quirks have been removed?

In a recent Email, a friend who is suppling me with a few eggs and started birds, felt that of the 2 lines he has, one does not grow as well as the other, and we wondered if it's because this line is 50 years old, or more, and these birds came directly from that breeder. THe second line is a combo of at least 2 lines, and out grows the first line I mentioned. We are planning to mix the lines and probably add a third line.

Your thoughts. Please, all opinions are welcome. I'm not a newbie to genetics, though some of our readers are. I would like to learn.

 

[stonykill]

im alittle behind in the posts as i dont get to read them untill im at work ..i have a dominecker roo..seems to be partly blind..think this would be permanent? or is there something i can buy to help the feller? hes been this way for some time now ..could be i have waited to long to ask the question..

I have a blind in one eye Sumatra roo who cares very well everyday for his flock of RIR's and 1 black Austrolop. Being blind in one eye doesn't seem to affect him in the least. He lost the eye over 2 years ago in a rooster fight.

 

[fowlman01]

im alittle behind in the posts as i dont get to read them untill im at work ..i have a dominecker roo..seems to be partly blind..think this would be permanent? or is there something i can buy to help the feller? hes been this way for some time now ..could be i have waited to long to ask the question..

Try it, but usually you need to get on this stuff right away. Chickens do pretty well even if they are blind.

Walt

 

[fultzie]

I have been studying coop designs on the site recently. I already have what was supposed to be a chicken tractor, but then became too heavy to move around a lot, so I am planning to build a larger structure. I'm going to have a building with a permanent run, so I was wondering about fencing. I see some folks using hardware cloth and others using regular chain link fence. Obviously the holes are bigger in chain link. I'd like to get some OT's opinions on whether one or the other is a better choice.

Thanks.

I too have a pernanemt run and used 2x4 12 1/2 ga, welded wire ..for me it works great ..dont have any minks or smaller preds. you could put the hardware cloth around the bottem for to keep coons from reaching in and pulling chicks threw the wire ..but thats what i used

 

[Robert Blosl]

I apologized if this has been discussed before, if not perhaps many OT will chime in, all opinions welcomed. I have been playing with birds for about a year. While I have learned a lot, I'm often left with bigger questions that I cannot resolve. I have a number of different breeds, and see that there is a wide variety of behaviors and it leads me to: do I have the right birds for me?

I see the purpose of hatchery birds: a smaller bird is more efficient at egg production especially when 100% of the feed is put in front of the hens. And the production lines of , say, leghorns and cornish X take it to the next level; factory level production. I'm not criticizing. Just that this type of production requires a boat load of processed feed. I see fast growing as very efficient if the feed can be trucked in cheaply, but those days are in the past. I'm thinking, and correct me if I'm off here, that the old lines are more dual purpose, utilize less feed per day, grow slower, and are better able to subsist off the land available.

How do I figure out which old breeds will work for me? Clearly many old breeds were developed to fit specific conditions. So each is different for many good reasons. I'm just lost trying to know what I need for my circumstances. THe speckled sussex, the Buff orpington and the black copper marans have been my best foragers yet--traveling the furthest away from the coop area.

Who would like to tackle this dilemma.

This is a great question as last week I got a personnel message from a beginner who has had three different breeds and seems to be going around in circles and does not seem to be satisfied with what she has. She has mutts as Ralph mentioned and I cant help that but you got to get a start some where. I did I had mutt Rhode Island Reds when I was Born and had them up till I was ten years old. My first Light Bahamas where mutts they lasted two years. Then at age twelve I saw the light I got me some pure breed Rhode Island Reds from a old strain out of Illinois. I kept them till I left home and joined the Air Force.

Now I have 27 years under my belt and I have only had two strains of chickens. I have Single Comb Rhode Island Reds that are 100 years old and I have a strain of your White Plymouth Rocks that are 50 years old. I dont baby them. Rule number one is Vigor. Rule number two is I use the Fit of the Fittest Principle when I breed. I may hatch 50 chicks out of four females. Only the Strong survive, I do not dope my chickens. Not vitamins, not worming, maybe some Adams flea spray to chase the mites away once in a while. I breed from females that lay eggs allot. Not your 275 egg production type birds but about 200 eggs per pullet year. My hens can live and I breed from them up to 8 years of age. I like to breed from hens and cock birds that have molted back the way I want them to look and act.

If they get sick they die. I dont need them I may put a male bird in a cardboard box during the winter when its cold to keep from freezing his comb but he is back during the day in the cold to do his job. My females have their nest, with their dummy eggs in them and I tried to breed them to lay be for 8 am. I don't put eggs in the incubator after eight am and in five years the off spring do the same. They go out and enjoy the free range eat bugs, come in and get their game bird pellets and fresh running water and out to roam the two acres and then they come back to roost I hope late and then i shut the door and the lights go off at 9 pm and we do it all over again the next day.

No sick chickens, they are tuff, they are gallant in the males, yet DOCILE in nature.

Like I was saying most of your problems is in what you have and they are not breed for only one thing and that is to hatch and sell chicks.Old farts like me are died in the wool breeders just like the old farmers where in the old days. We dont go to Vets to take our sick chickens to find out whats wrong with them. They are very much like the Marines we breed them tuff and they live long lives and their off spring have these traits.

Hope this helps you guys as this is what I was trying to tell this lady who was frustrated. She likes Rhode Island Reds. So get a good stain like I have I told her your money ahead in the long run. . I plan to get her ten started chicks next spring and will teach her how to breed them like I do and the man be for me and the lady be for him going back to 1912.

I have a fellow with the same problem. He likes Buff Orpingtons and I plan to get him some good blood lines of Buff Orpingtons that are tough like my birdsnest spring. He wont have any more problems with sickness and dieing birds next spring. Its easy you just got to know your blood lines and the strain history of the birds you raise to have extreme success.

If I have offended anyone I cant help it I am a poultry snob and a old time breeder. bob

 

[mommissan]

Great advice! I feel bad not saving all the chicks and sickly birds, but you are right! It's not fair to future generations to let them carry on inferior genetics. I took away their light, their heat, and now the layer mash. I've been wondering about using game pellets; I'll be switching to that next. THANKS!

 

[Achickenwrangler#1]

I don't know that snob is the correct adjective, bob, purist maybe fanatic, a snob is someone who thinks what someone else has could never be as good as what you have and I'm not getting that from your posts. I think you are a selective breeder and that's rare in the capitalistic world thriving out there. It's hard for someone starting out to know which breed is going to work for their circumstances.
I wanted some chickens to lay eggs and eat bugs. The production reds I have had laid an egg every day since they reached maturity, I got them at the feed store, they are also chow hounds, the dumbest one wandered too far away and was killed by a predator. The oagf that were given to me are truly suited for the environment, breed like rabbits, live off the land,avoid predators, eat everything that moves,lay small eggs regularly and only enough meat for two people, and are actually sweet natured. (I have chicks crossed with these and interested to see how they do) The neat side of chicken breeding is you don't have to wait six years to see if your plan was successful. From most of what I've read people want all the chicks to survive at all costs when it would be more beneficial to let the weak and/or deformed die, and cull out the substandards. Nature pretty much does that for me..too many roos fills the freezer. It's a huge difference for people who keep chickens for pets, those who want to win a blue ribbon and those who basically eat them and their eggs. I don't kid myself that the red pullets from tsc are true rir, although they will prob lay alot of eggs, seem very healthy, and are red with greenish eyes,...now who bred for that! But! I read alot of posts that say they have rir and they hens look exactly like the ones I picked up for a buck fifty. Keep on with the education for us bob, it's best to be informed, at least for those who can listen to cold hard facts.

 

[Arielle]

This is a great question as last week I got a personnel message from a beginner who has had three different breeds and seems to be going around in circles and does not seem to be satisfied with what she has. She has mutts as Ralph mentioned and I cant help that but you got to get a start some where. I did I had mutt Rhode Island Reds when I was Born and had them up till I was ten years old. My first Light Bahamas where mutts they lasted two years. Then at age twelve I saw the light I got me some pure breed Rhode Island Reds from a old strain out of Illinois. I kept them till I left home and joined the Air Force.

Now I have 27 years under my belt and I have only had two strains of chickens. I have Single Comb Rhode Island Reds that are 100 years old and I have a strain of your White Plymouth Rocks that are 50 years old. I dont baby them. Rule number one is Vigor. Rule number two is I use the Fit of the Fittest Principle when I breed. I may hatch 50 chicks out of four females. Only the Strong survive, I do not dope my chickens. Not vitamins, not worming, maybe some Adams flea spray to chase the mites away once in a while. I breed from females that lay eggs allot. Not your 275 egg production type birds but about 200 eggs per pullet year. My hens can live and I breed from them up to 8 years of age. I like to breed from hens and cock birds that have molted back the way I want them to look and act.Would you expand on this?

If they get sick they die. I dont need them I may put a male bird in a cardboard box during the winter when its cold to keep from freezing his comb but he is back during the day in the cold to do his job. My females have their nest, with their dummy eggs in them and I tried to breed them to lay be for 8 am. I don't put eggs in the incubator after eight am and in five years the off spring do the same. They go out and enjoy the free range eat bugs, come in and get their game bird pellets and fresh running water and out to roam the two acres and then they come back to roost I hope late and then i shut the door and the lights go off at 9 pm and we do it all over again the next day. This addresses the egg collection issue of the hens off roaming all day. What time do the lights come on in the morning so that they lay by 8 am?

No sick chickens, they are tuff, they are gallant in the males, yet DOCILE in nature. This sounds like he result of many generations of selection for the area they live in. If I move a new strain to my place should I support them with basic meds and worming? How is a location change managed?

Like I was saying most of your problems is in what you have and they are not breed for only one thing and that is to hatch and sell chicks.Old farts like me are died in the wool breeders just like the old farmers where in the old days. We dont go to Vets to take our sick chickens to find out whats wrong with them. They are very much like the Marines we breed them tuff and they live long lives and their off spring have these traits. I had an uncle that bred pigeons. Very good races. Won all their feed money. He culled a sick bird. THe remaing birds were less exposed and the resistant birds continued on the resitant genetics. He bred that flock for 70 years. When is inbreeding a problem? How do you keep up vigor when by mathematical evaluation, vigor decreases after 25% inbreeding?

Hope this helps you guys as this is what I was trying to tell this lady who was frustrated. She likes Rhode Island Reds. So get a good stain like I have I told her your money ahead in the long run. . I plan to get her ten started chicks next spring and will teach her how to breed them like I do and the man be for me and the lady be for him going back to 1912.

I have a fellow with the same problem. He likes Buff Orpingtons and I plan to get him some good blood lines of Buff Orpingtons that are tough like my birdsnest spring. He wont have any more problems with sickness and dieing birds next spring. Its easy you just got to know your blood lines and the strain history of the birds you raise to have extreme success.

If I have offended anyone I cant help it I am a poultry snob and a old time breeder. bob

Bob,

Thank you, I think I'm starting to understand. I learned most of my stuff in college. THe focus is high tech factory production. I'm looking for a flock to feed my family meat and eggs for little money.

What I'm hearing from you is the difference in selection process for many generations. I purposely started with cheap hatchery hens to lay lots of eggs. ANd putting feed in front of them was what I learned in college ( the factory hens in cages in a huge building). AFter getting the chicks last February, I started questioning that method.
Thank you, I think I'm starting to understand. I learned most ofmy stuff in college, as I said. The focus is high tech factory production. I'm looking for a flock to feed my family meat and eggs for little money.

You 've given me much to think about.





I will put my questions in red.

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Quote:

This is a great question as last week I got a personnel message from a beginner who has had three different breeds and seems to be going around in circles and does not seem to be satisfied with what she has. She has mutts as Ralph mentioned and I cant help that but you got to get a start some where. I did I had mutt Rhode Island Reds when I was Born and had them up till I was ten years old. My first Light Bahamas where mutts they lasted two years. Then at age twelve I saw the light I got me some pure breed Rhode Island Reds from a old strain out of Illinois. I kept them till I left home and joined the Air Force.

Now I have 27 years under my belt and I have only had two strains of chickens. I have Single Comb Rhode Island Reds that are 100 years old and I have a strain of your White Plymouth Rocks that are 50 years old. I dont baby them. Rule number one is Vigor. Rule number two is I use the Fit of the Fittest Principle when I breed. I may hatch 50 chicks out of four females. Only the Strong survive, I do not dope my chickens. Not vitamins, not worming, maybe some Adams flea spray to chase the mites away once in a while. I breed from females that lay eggs allot. Not your 275 egg production type birds but about 200 eggs per pullet year. My hens can live and I breed from them up to 8 years of age. I like to breed from hens and cock birds that have molted back the way I want them to look and act.Would you expand on this?

If they get sick they die. I dont need them I may put a male bird in a cardboard box during the winter when its cold to keep from freezing his comb but he is back during the day in the cold to do his job. My females have their nest, with their dummy eggs in them and I tried to breed them to lay be for 8 am. I don't put eggs in the incubator after eight am and in five years the off spring do the same. They go out and enjoy the free range eat bugs, come in and get their game bird pellets and fresh running water and out to roam the two acres and then they come back to roost I hope late and then i shut the door and the lights go off at 9 pm and we do it all over again the next day. This addresses the egg collection issue of the hens off roaming all day. What time do the lights come on in the morning so that they lay by 8 am?

No sick chickens, they are tuff, they are gallant in the males, yet DOCILE in nature. This sounds like he result of many generations of selection for the area they live in. If I move a new strain to my place should I support them with basic meds and worming? How is a location change managed?

Like I was saying most of your problems is in what you have and they are not breed for only one thing and that is to hatch and sell chicks.Old farts like me are died in the wool breeders just like the old farmers where in the old days. We dont go to Vets to take our sick chickens to find out whats wrong with them. They are very much like the Marines we breed them tuff and they live long lives and their off spring have these traits. I had an uncle that bred pigeons. Very good races. Won all their feed money. He culled a sick bird. THe remaing birds were less exposed and the resistant birds continued on the resitant genetics. He bred that flock for 70 years. When is inbreeding a problem? How do you keep up vigor when by mathematical evaluation, vigor decreases after 25% inbreeding?

Hope this helps you guys as this is what I was trying to tell this lady who was frustrated. She likes Rhode Island Reds. So get a good stain like I have I told her your money ahead in the long run. . I plan to get her ten started chicks next spring and will teach her how to breed them like I do and the man be for me and the lady be for him going back to 1912.

I have a fellow with the same problem. He likes Buff Orpingtons and I plan to get him some good blood lines of Buff Orpingtons that are tough like my birdsnest spring. He wont have any more problems with sickness and dieing birds next spring. Its easy you just got to know your blood lines and the strain history of the birds you raise to have extreme success.

If I have offended anyone I cant help it I am a poultry snob and a old time breeder. bob

Bob,

Thank you, I think I'm starting to understand. I learned most of my stuff in college. THe focus is high tech factory production. I'm looking for a flock to feed my family meat and eggs for little money.

What I'm hearing from you is the difference in selection process for many generations. I purposely started with cheap hatchery hens to lay lots of eggs. ANd putting feed in front of them was what I learned in college ( the factory hens in cages in a huge building). AFter getting the chicks last February, I started questioning that method.
Thank you, I think I'm starting to understand. I learned most ofmy stuff in college, as I said. The focus is high tech factory production. I'm looking for a flock to feed my family meat and eggs for little money.

You 've given me much to think about.





I will put my questions in red.

You should have chosen the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. They have 5 research barns. 2 commercial egg production. 2 commercial meat production. The fifth research barn is exhibition quality poultry. The students learn not only about the commercial industry, but about the Heritage breeds that the industry came from.

For anyone interested in studying poultry science in college, the UA program is the best anywhere. Here is an incubation Seminar that Dr. Keith Bramwell did in January.




Quote:

 

[Arielle]

THank you for sharing. I try to learn as much as I can. I guess I have always been a "student" my whole life as there is more than I can learn in a lifetime.

At the time, when going to college, I was only interested in becoming a vet, looking for a well rounded course load. Only one class in poultry. I've been raising horses for 25 years, and sheep a bit longer. Only recently added chickens, ( ducks and turkeys,too) when a lone hen won me over to chickens,etc.

I look forward to viewing that material you posted, Jim.