Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[Back2MyRoots]

Do any OTs have experience with red sex links (aka Red Stars / Red Comets)? I am brand new to chicken raising and the owner of our local feed & seed suggested them as good started birds. He also encouraged me to buy twice as many chicks as I wanted grown chickens because supposedly 50% don't make it to adulthood, but I guess I was the sucker there, because I some how managed to keep all 6 alive! (lol) I read above where Ivy said dual purpose birds weren't as good as a strict layers---I believe these are considered dual purpose? Should I look as trading some birds off for something else?

 

[DBrewer]

I couldn't agree more. It sounds like DBrewer may have limited space in which case I would definitely stick with RIRs. If you have LOTS of room and multiple waterers and feeders you could mix in some other breeds but if not, I wouldn't do it.

I guess that depends on how you define "lots of room". I live on 3 1/2 acres. A lot of that is wooded. But...that's why god created bulldozers. If I need more space I'll make some. I'm not looking for hundreds of birds. I was thinking maybe 10 or 20 tops. I'm looking for eggs, garden aeration and fertilization, and entertainment. Not going in to a full bore farming operation. When I said I wanted to start with 3 to see if I really wanted to mess with them, I guess what I should have said was that I wanted to see how I'd feel about fitting something new in to my schedule. I enjoy tending to the birds and watching them, so getting more is definitely a possibility. I'm prepared to build fences, hen houses, get an extra dog, or do whatever all else is necessary to enlarge the flock. Just wanted to know if sticking to one breed or mixing them was the best way to go. These are my first chickens, so we'll have to see about their temperment and my ability to handle itas they get older. They *may* end up being eaten one day, but though they are "dual purpose" birds I did in fact get them simply for the reasons stated above, and not so much the meat. Though as I read more and more of this thread I am mentally working through my issues with that. (City boy....didn't grow up killin my own food).

Thanks for the help and advice. I really am reading, and applying, as much of it as possible.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Do any OTs have experience with red sex links (aka Red Stars / Red Comets)? I am brand new to chicken raising and the owner of our local feed & seed suggested them as good started birds. He also encouraged me to buy twice as many chicks as I wanted grown chickens because supposedly 50% don't make it to adulthood, but I guess I was the sucker there, because I some how managed to keep all 6 alive! (lol) I read above where Ivy said dual purpose birds weren't as good as a strict layers---I believe these are considered dual purpose? Should I look as trading some birds off for something else?

I've raised a couple different strains of red sex links over the past 5 years. Both, commercial stains. I honestly prefer the ISA Brown, but the Bovan Browns were quite nice and their laying has held up well. In fact, both strains are laying well in the 3rd and even a few, into their 4th year.

As for 50% mortality? That's bunk. If a keeper loses 50% of their chicks then either the stock is of horrid genetics or the keeper is not practicing good husbandry. Our mortality rate is so low as to be inconsequential to "allow for" when purchasing.

I do agree that red sex links make a good bird for beginners. They are friendly, on the small size, produce lots of eggs and are generally thrifty on feed, because they are often bred for high feed conversion. They are not dual purpose, however. They are truly an egg laying breed, although the males are edible, as they do muscle up some.
The red sex link is an extremely egg laying oriented bird.

The thing is this, however. Red Sex Link isn't a breed, it is methodology of hybridization which allows for color sexing at hatch. There are dozens and dozens of strains, mixes, and types out there. There is variance among them, big time, so making broad, overly generalized statements about them is dicey.

 

[ajlynco]

I've raised a couple different strains of red sex links over the past 5 years. Both, commercial stains. I honestly prefer the ISA Brown, but the Bovan Browns were quite nice and their laying has held up well. In fact, both strains are laying well in the 3rd and even a few, into their 4th year.

As for 50% mortality? That's bunk. If a keeper loses 50% of their chicks then either the stock is of horrid genetics or the keeper is not practicing good husbandry. Our mortality rate is so low as to be inconsequential to "allow for" when purchasing.

I do agree that red sex links make a good bird for beginners. They are friendly, on the small size, produce lots of eggs and are generally thrifty on feed, because they are often bred for high feed conversion. They are not dual purpose, however. They are truly an egg laying breed, although the males are edible, as they do muscle up some.
The red sex link is an extremely egg laying oriented bird.

The thing is this, however. Red Sex Link isn't a breed, it is methodology of hybridization which allows for color sexing at hatch. There are dozens and dozens of strains, mixes, and types out there. There is variance among them, big time, so making broad, overly generalized statements about them is dicey.

Fred, what, in your opinion, is the difference between the ISA Browns and the Bovan Browns. Why do you prefer the ISA's? How do they compare to black sex links? Just curious Fred, thanks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ve made some red sex links but haven’t bought any. The hatcheries sell two different kinds. The ones Fred is talking about are not dual purpose birds. These are commercial layers. They are fairly small in size so they don’t use a lot of what they eat to maintain their body. They have a very good feed to egg conversion rate. They are bred to lay a lot of Grade A size eggs, but can burn out earlier than “regular” chickens. They are specially bred through many generations for one purpose, to lay a lot of commercial sized eggs on as little feed as possible.

The other red sex links are simply two breeds that are crossed with the genetics that you can tell the sex of the chicks at hatch. As Fred said, there are many different breeds you can use to make them. Some of the ones used by a lot of hatcheries are Rhode Island Red or New Hampshire males with White Rock, Delaware, or Silver Laced Wyandotte females, but other breeds can be used. These are simply crosses between dual purpose breeds and they make dual purpose chickens. They normally lay pretty well because their hatchery parent stock are good layers, but they are not in the class of the commercial breeds. They have larger bodies so their feed to egg conversion rate is not as good as the commercial breeds.

There is nothing in them being red sex links that makes them good layers. Egg laying ability is inherited from their parents. There is no gene that makes them red sex links that affects egg production. The only benefit to them being red sex links is that you can tell the sex of the chicks at hatch so you don’t have to feed roosters you don’t want or the hatcheries can sell you sexed chicks. If you cross breeds that are not good egg layers to make sex links, the chicks won't be good egg layers either.

If your red sex links are about the size of a leghorn, they are probably the commercial type red sex links. They often have some leghorn ancestry so they might have the leghorn type comb too. If they are the same size as regular dual purpose chickens, then they are probably from dual purpose chicken parents. Different hatcheries sell different types. It’s been a while since I looked it up, but I believe Cackle and McMurray off the commercial type, Ideal makes their own from dual purpose breeds, and Meyer offers a choice of both. If you know which hatchery they came from, you might be able to figure it out.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Al, the ISA has 30-40 years of breeding behind it. It was virtually the first, along with a couple of other Hubbards and Bovans. Many of those genetics firms have merged into the huge ISA/Babcock/Hendrix/Hysex/DeKalb/Shaver conglomerate. http://www.isapoultry.com/en/Products.aspx

The ISA Group isn't the only outfit. There are a bunch more, of course, and each division sports three or four different models, making literally dozens of possible commercial RSLs from which to choose. Why the original ISA for me? First, we have a licensed hatchery near us. Townline. Getting them is easy. Most of the other strains are not available to the retail market.

I love their thrift, first and foremost. They're also friendly, tough, pretty good foragers, layers of extremely high quality eggs. They don't pick each other, they get along well.

The Black Sex links we've had were quiet, business-like, long life birds, actually. Nowhere near as good at feed conversion, but nice birds overall. I just haven't had the attraction to that mix.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Al,

Let's see if I can dig out photos of both ISAs and Bovan at about the same age. Not side by side, but in a similar pose.

In a nutshell, the Bovan's never gave us the egg quality the ISA gives. Size of egg was more variant. We also had more feather issues with the Bovans. They were not nearly as feed thrifty either. All this is in our experience, not in scientific study. We still have some Bovans, now in their third year. Their OK. Not putting down the bird.

 

[Robert Blosl]

I was reading your comments about the super commerical layers and a name hit me Monoroe Bab cock one of my mentors from 27 years ago had a line called Babcock 290. He claimed they lay ed 290 eggs a year. They where suppose to be Commerical R I Reds that he put together. I think this line is in Europe still, he also had a white leghorn line called the Babcock 300 which where sold for white egg farming and the eggs are sold in stores ect. He was a great chicken man and had a degree from Cornell in Poultry Science. He helped me develope my line of Reds. I just called them Mohawks as I had a hen just like this pullet that was hatched last year in Kansas by a family who has my old strain. I started with a six year old hen who looked just like this girl and she was my franchise to produce my new improved line of dual purpose layers and meat chickens. Her off spring in about five years averaged about 200 eggs per pullet year under 15 hours of total lights which I use in the winter time for hatching eggs. The old time farmers learned if your birds layed to many eggs in their pullet year they had blow outs and the pullets died. So if you took your loses in death of hens and then totaled up the number of eggs sold per year you lost money with high egg layers. They would rather have a female like this girl and in the long run of say two to three years they ended up with more money in their pockets from egg sales and could sell the hen for eating or breeding. These guys where farmers trying to make a living with cattle and poultry ect. Also a lot of these people with this kind of R I Red where your great grand mothers who feed the family from the profits of her chickens during the depression. Dad made money how ever he could in those days some times had to be away from home to make enough for the family to live.

Most of the high end layers you only need a hand full of them to supply the average family with eggs. Ideal hatchery has a good assortment of large fowl many familys get a mixed bunch of breeds sent to them then after a year the can decide which breeds do best for them and then in a year or two order 25 chicks from Mr. Fox or get birds sent to their local feed store. The production reds that we get at our feed store and good layers , do not die and do very well on free range they are from Ideal. I have raised them side by side with my dark R I Reds to just watch how they feather to help me gage how long my birds took to get fully feathered in comparison to the production birds. The more eggs a female lays the faster she feathers from a chick to a adult bird.

Have any of you got chicks from Ideal Hatchery? bob

 

[Fred's Hens]

Bob

The Babcock division is now part of the ISA poultry genetics group in Europe. Very interesting, to me, your personal connection to the beginning of that line.

The commercial brown hen is capable of 310 eggs, with some reporting 320-325 their pullet year. The debate of using these commercial birds and flipping the flock every year, or at most, two years of laying versus the slower, but steady approach is still an ongoing discussion. Not discussed among the commercial guys,(those guys have made up their minds long ago) but among small holders who keep a few dozen commercial hens for eggs.

I've been keeping strict charts and accounts for the past three years to better judge for myself concerning the economics. One problem for me has been this. To what shall I compare the costs factors? Other large fowl, such as Rocks or Reds, but also from hatchery stock? Those are also "production" oriented in breeding, it seems to me, and the risk of reproductive issues in the hen's out years seems equally difficult. We've not been thrilled with our hatchery rocks, reds, sussex, etc.

Our recent addition of KathyinMo batch of Barred Rocks will give us a truer comparison, in about a year. As I've written you, Bob, I'm still on a search for White Rocks from a good line as well.

 

[Fred's Hens]

To answer your other question, Bob, no. I've never had birds from Ideal, but I've seen you comment more than once about how much like them.

My wife is an egg seller. She has a lot of customers, over 18 now, I think. I've used the commercial hens for that side of things and while no one gets rich, yes, it is profitable. My preference is to gradually re-make the flocks over the next three years. Kathy's BR is the first step. Step two is the WR. If either or both of these sustainable, heritage lines lay 250-260 eggs a year? I'd be thrilled with that and gradually be done altogether with commercial chicks. We shall see how it unfolds. As always, your comments here, and elsewhere, are a source of great encouragement to me.