Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[Zany Chick]

I'll tell you from whence the Beekissed came....way back when I first joined my first forum it was on beekeeping because I was really researching getting bees~which I eventually obtained, but that's another story. I had to come up with a name that went along with the forum...seemed like the right thing to do. I had a line of lip balms that I made and sold along with soaps, sugar scrubs, etc., that had beeswax as the base and the lip balms were called Beekissed because I loved the double entandre of bee/be + kissed for a lip balm...even had a little bee on the label.

Well...in the interest of simplicity with a nod towards encroaching senility, I just kept the same screen name for every forum I joined thereafter so I wouldn't have to remember all these different log in names. When I joined here it sort of worked well with chicken beaks(beeks~beekeepers refer to themselves as "beeks", which I found amusing) as well, so Beekissed~though I would never kiss a chicken's beak~seemed like it worked here also.

If I sound like some of the farmers you know it's probably because I was raised roughin' it on a homestead, lived in a two room log cabin, no utilities, carried water from a spring and fed/watered livestock before walking a mile out to the hard road to catch the bus for school(yes, it just happened to be uphill both ways...I live in WV, for heaven's sake!). I started helping to keep and butcher chickens at the age of 10(my sisters just "couldn't do it" and menfolk didn't do that where I lived) when we first moved on the land and helping skin/process deer from then also....we worked pretty much all the time to procure food for the family and lived out of the preserved food cellar all winter, so the luxury of keeping animals for pets just wasn't there.

After living like that through my formative years, you can imagine how little understanding I have of babying chickens and livestock around, with not eating them(of course you EAT them...if you don't eat them you go hungry!) and with worrying about every little aspect of their living outdoors~it's where they were born to live.

Could be why I sound like a man sometimes...I worked like a man from when I was a little girl and that hasn't changed much now that I'm an old girl.

This was the first cabin we built...in 3 wks time with chainsaws and axes for tools(no electricity there until I was well into my 20s). That's my mother. I had a hand on every log of both cabins we built...and pretty much of the firewood we had to burn. Cooked on a wood cookstove both winter and summer.



And here's the second log cabin built in the same way but in more time, years later after the land was all cleared and I was in my teens.



Now, after that totally obscure and probably unnecessary walk down memory lane, we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming!

I enjoyed hearing that, and seeing the pictures. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CSisley]

My three month old Production Reds are pretty mean and I recently added 2 two month old Buff Orps to the coop with them. The BO's have integrated OK especially since I introduced my Rooster to the coop. He has taken the BO's under his wing and seems to think they are his babies. Anyway, I'm wondering if the Reds could end up being a problem later on. I can't stand having bully's in my flock. I had a Barred Rock that was a terrible bully to my little Bantam Hen and the Rock eventually had to go. Is that what I'm looking at with these Reds as well???

They might be a problem at some point but you'll just have to use your best judgment on that one. I spend a lot of time just watching my flock. A few pecks here and there aren't anything to be concerned about. I have a few bully hens in my flock but they are so outnumbered by easy going hens that they aren't a problem. In a flock where the pecking order has already been established I've found that there are two main types of bullies; the kind that gives warning and the kind that doesn't. The kind that does will usually make a warning sound or flare neck/tale feathers to warn subordinate hens that they're coming through. That usually gives the lowly hens time to move out of the way and thereby avoid being pecked. The hens that peck without cause and without warning are the ones I will not tolerate. I also do not tolerate relentless peckers; the ones that will continue to peck even if the lower hen is obviously trying to get out of the way. Again, I only make these judgments once the flock has had time to settle, not when they are still sorting out their pecking order. I find it very easy to sell these bully hens on craigslist and I am very forthright with buyers about why I am getting rid of them. Some folks just don't care and probably think I'm an idiot for getting rid of them for such a reason. I personally believe too many bully hens stress the flock making them more susceptible to parasites and disease and consequently lay less. Re-homing them to the stew pot is also a good alternative if you're so minded.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think people get way too hung up on behavior of "breeds". I think "strain" is much more inportant than "breed" when it comes to behavior. You can go back a couple of pages and read Fred and Robert Blosi's conversation about Rhode Island Reds to see what I am talking about.

By selective breeding you can change any flocks appearance, performance, or general behavior. One of the best example I have found was an article I read a year or so ago about someone that had split a flock and started selectively breeding the two flocks for size. They were purebreeds and full brothers and sisters but he started breeding one for large size and the other for small size. I don't know how many generations it took, but he now has two flocks where one is 9 times as big as the other. This is from the same ancestry and purely through the power of selective breeding. I wish I could find that article online to reference it.

You can do the same thing with any breed of chickens relative to behavior. If you decide to breed only the ones that are not bullies, you can get a flock that are not real bad bullies. Chickens will still sort out a pecking order and the older ones will still pick on the younger ones. That's just chicken behavior. But you can reduce the number of chickens that are the relentless peckers that Csisley is talking about. You can reduce the number of roosters that tend to become human aggressive. You are never going to eliminate that possiblility entirely and you can teach any rooster to be human aggressive, but you can reduce that possibility. Breed the chickens that have the size, appearance, productivity, or behaviors you want, whatever that might be, and you will encourage those traits in your flock.

You could get anything with those production reds. It purely depends on what criteria was used by the person selecting the breeders. If production was the main criteria, they may have totally ignored behavior so you could get anything. I agree to observe your flock and make your decisions using your criteria. Your goals are probably different than mine so your decisions may be different.

I raise mine to eat. I do appreciate a hen or rooster that through their behavior "volunteers" for the crock pot when it is time to make that decision.

 

[fowlman01]

I think people get way too hung up on behavior of "breeds". I think "strain" is much more inportant than "breed" when it comes to behavior. You can go back a couple of pages and read Fred and Robert Blosi's conversation about Rhode Island Reds to see what I am talking about.
By selective breeding you can change any flocks appearance, performance, or general behavior. One of the best example I have found was an article I read a year or so ago about someone that had split a flock and started selectively breeding the two flocks for size. They were purebreeds and full brothers and sisters but he started breeding one for large size and the other for small size. I don't know how many generations it took, but he now has two flocks where one is 9 times as big as the other. This is from the same ancestry and purely through the power of selective breeding. I wish I could find that article online to reference it.
You can do the same thing with any breed of chickens relative to behavior. If you decide to breed only the ones that are not bullies, you can get a flock that are not real bad bullies. Chickens will still sort out a pecking order and the older ones will still pick on the younger ones. That's just chicken behavior. But you can reduce the number of chickens that are the relentless peckers that Csisley is talking about. You can reduce the number of roosters that tend to become human aggressive. You are never going to eliminate that possiblility entirely and you can teach any rooster to be human aggressive, but you can reduce that possibility. Breed the chickens that have the size, appearance, productivity, or behaviors you want, whatever that might be, and you will encourage those traits in your flock.
You could get anything with those production reds. It purely depends on what criteria was used by the person selecting the breeders. If production was the main criteria, they may have totally ignored behavior so you could get anything. I agree to observe your flock and make your decisions using your criteria. Your goals are probably different than mine so your decisions may be different.
I raise mine to eat. I do appreciate a hen or rooster that through their behavior "volunteers" for the crock pot when it is time to make that decision.

Strain is where the behavior comes from. Generally you can't blame the breed. Certain behavior here gets you a place in the compost pile.

Walt

 

[Robert Blosl]

I also enjoyed the story's and the log cabins. I was brought up in southwest Washington in the time period where I was the only child in the neighborhood and all the people who lived near me where farmers who where in their 70s depression babies I called them latter. They did not waist nothing and made do with what they had. They were from the Dacocatoes and moved out west after the grass hopper years wiped them out. They all were success full at their old age. One laddie had chickens and made money with them and her husband had a small dairy and put milk and cream in bottles and delivered to peoples homes in the area. She taught me a lot about chickens and their behavior. She had production Reds at that time, but told me out those dark Reds she had in South Dakota she got from a man in Mass. who I think was Harold Tompkins. She said those where the best Reds she ever had but had to leave them when she moved out west. When I got older I wanted some of those chickens as my mother had some of her birds in our pens as I was growing up. When I was twelve I finalaly got some and have them now and they are like she said the best all around breed I ever owned. Behavior in cattle in the herd can be breed in or out. Some times you get a cow that does not get along and will lead the heard in the wrong direction and cause you to loose lots of time because they have crazy behaviors. Sell them to a family and she might be the best cow you could ever have. This happen to us and our cow she was a pain in the butt for the dairy farmer but my dad bought her and I had here for about ten years and her calves where fine.
Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine who has been breeding champion White Plymouth Rock large fowl for at least forty years. He does the opposite of me he adds a new male every four or five years. I call him a Russian Rullet breeder. He things he is going to hit the jackpot and get a champion. Well two years ago he got a male from a breeder named Mr. Brown in California and put him in his breeding pen. One day he was collecting eggs in the nests and this rooster came up and waked him in the back of the legs. He turned around and told him watch it buddy. We dont tolerate this around her. Well he did it again a few times a mean fellow. He hatched the chicks from this matting and got two killer males and put them in the breeding pen the next year. This year he told me the sons of this male are doing the same thing. Hitting him as he comes in the pens to check on the birds and get eggs. My wife says what do you think will happen next year. I said all of his males are going to be man beaters. He will never get this out of his flock so once you see it you got to stop it right away. Get rid of the male and his off spring if you don't it can take you five to ten years to breed it out. Behavior is important in breeding large fowl to the standard. Just think if you have a killer male at a Poultry Show and a judge like Walt come up to the pen and the male trys to bite him and acts so bad. Walt is not going to like this and the bird most of the time will not win the class or adv ace up to be champ ion American. Docile is the KEY word in Dual Purpose Large Fowl which many of you have. Just something to talk about when you get your breeds to try. I also enjoy this thread. I told a beginner yesterday at the Tractor Supply store about you guys. She is a beginner waiting to her mid forty's to get started. She is learning and practicing the fun of Poultry Husbandry. bob

 

[CSisley]

I understand what you all are saying about strain but I also believe that you can make general assumptions about a breed based on the strains that are common. I believe that the common lot, the ones that are most accessible to the general public which are usually hatchery birds, of RIRs, Production Reds, New Hampshire Reds and other genetically similar breeds have picked up the mean gene somewhere in their history. It was likely done by folks that were selecting for a genetic trait that is genetically closely associated with a temperament that is cut-throat. They may not have purposefully been selecting for cut throat chickens, but I'm sure Golden Retriever breeders weren't purposefully selecting for hip displasia. Hip displasia is common because irresponsible breeders were selecting for some trait that is closely associated with hip displace but weren't carefull to weed this gene out once it manifested itself. Now it's safe to say that if you're Golden Retriever shopping you better be sure the dog is hip tested before you buy it. When I say closely associated I'm talking about genetic traits are often paired together because of their physical location on the DNA. Anyone who's taken a basic course in genetics knows what I'm talking about. That's not to say that every flock of of RIR, Production Red, NH Red etc. will have this genetic characteristic but I believe it's safe to say it's fairly common occurrence. Just like it's generally safe to say that RIRs are red, although I'm sure there is someone out there that's got an albino flock.

 

[fowlman01]

I understand what you all are saying about strain but I also believe that you can make general assumptions about a breed based on the strains that are common. I believe that the common lot, the ones that are most accessible to the general public which are usually hatchery birds, of RIRs, Production Reds, New Hampshire Reds and other genetically similar breeds have picked up the mean gene somewhere in their history. It was likely done by folks that were selecting for a genetic trait that is genetically closely associated with a temperament that is cut-throat. They may not have purposefully been selecting for cut throat chickens, but I'm sure Golden Retriever breeders weren't purposefully selecting for hip displasia. Hip displasia is common because irresponsible breeders were selecting for some trait that is closely associated with hip displace but weren't carefull to weed this gene out once it manifested itself. Now it's safe to say that if you're Golden Retriever shopping you better be sure the dog is hip tested before you buy it. When I say closely associated I'm talking about genetic traits are often paired together because of their physical location on the DNA. Anyone who's taken a basic course in genetics knows what I'm talking about. That's not to say that every flock of of RIR, Production Red, NH Red etc. will have this genetic characteristic but I believe it's safe to say it's fairly common occurrence. Just like it's generally safe to say that RIRs are red, although I'm sure there is someone out there that's got an albino flock.

Hatcheries hatch birds. Some of them don't even have grown birds on their property. Probably the last thing they care about is behavior. There are hatcheries, back yard chicken folk and serious breeders. Serious breeders are in the minority and the only ones that care about chicken behavior and know how to correct it. I raise Oriental breeds. They have been bred to kill other chickens for centuries, but mine never kick or bite me. The ones that exhibited that behavior are long gone. I can't have a 16lb Shamo stalking me when I'm in the yard and one is exercising. They actually like being handled because that is how I bred them.
If you count every hybrid RIR as a real RIR I guess you could say it is common to the breed....but hatchery birds aren't RIR's. The hatcheries don't purposely select for meanness, they just reproduce what they have and don't care about behavior.

It is strain specific.

Walt

 

[Robert Blosl]

I apologies on my comments I thought I was posting on the Heritage Large Fowl Tread I started eighteen months ago. This thread is not in that subject matter.

When you want a breed such as Delawares you are better off going to a hatchery and order them and then dont worry about what they look like. Also, if you are unhappy with the behavior of your males that you get and raise you just have to deal with it. Nothing can be done unless you get birds from another hatchery. You must understand these birds a flock mated and the name of the game is hatcability to make a profit. They dont care about leg color, feather quality color of plumage or how the tail angle is. Get want you want enjoy them and if latter you want to improve your stock than I would be happy to tell you the top breeders in the USA that have the breed you want., I got a message from a guy who wants Light Brahmas. He saw pictures of the Standard breed ones and thinks he wants them. They are bigger and have nice color and are true to breed. Will he be happy with them. I dont think so. One friend who has a great strain only hatched 10% of the eggs. Why I dont know. To much fluffy feathers? Cant connect? Beginners would be turned off with this. So strains can make a difference when getting started.

I wish all you beginners the best and enjoy your chickens. Regardless what breed you want. Just dont get fooled by the pictures you see in the catalogs. Your birds may never reach that look as so many people bring there birds to a fair or a show and ask me what I think of their chickens. Do I tell them the truth or make it easy on them and fib.

Hope you all have a nice day. bob

 

[loanwizard]

Beekissed is a Flock Master, not a Flock Mistress. So is RidgeRunner.

I thought BeeKissed was male too at one time. Smart experienced witty... had to be male.

Is Fred's Hens and Al men too?

 

[Fred's Hens]

Bob, no apologies needed. I always enjoy your wonderful posts. It matters not.

Temperament. Some of you know we've been breeding sex links now for 3 or 4 generations. Sure, we consider the feathering, egg laying and appearance to be key, but honestly, I cannot take a hen that is not confident and hasn't much need to bully around the yard. Give me quiet, confident birds any day. A hen with a bad attitude just doesn't make to our breeding pens. I have two brothers, down in Kentucky, and their birds came from me. We've got a line of production reds, a line of production barred rocks and our sex link experimental line. One brother has also kept Spotted Sussex and Australorps.

No mean rooster gets anywhere with us. There's 16 kids in those two families down there, and from about age 8 on, they all know how to take out bird, pluck it and have in the pot for dinner. That's is what such birds are for. No bird, no matter how pretty, male or female, is worth it if they have a bad attitude. I concur with those that say temperament is inherited.

I often start with a laying group of say 20 mature pullets. After three weeks? I've usually pared that down to 8 or 9, based almost completely on temperament. It is that important to me. I don't care if she's a good layer. We've got lots and lots of good layers and I won't keep a bully hen nor a mean rooster.