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Chocolate (dun) & Leaky Color (pics)--Question

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Crunchie, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. Crunchie

    Crunchie Brook Valley Farm

    Mar 1, 2007
    Maryland
    I've got a little white crested chocolate (dun I suppose, obviously not true chocolate [​IMG]) Polish roo that has some leaky red in his feathers. I'm confused! Please help my genetics-challenged self to understand what happened here! [​IMG] It's my understanding that if you've got lighter colors leaking through a dark bird, that there is a lack of the melanizing gene that, basically, covers the light color and keeps the bird the dark (correct) color? Correct (or not--please explain)?? So...if this is the case, what might be in the background of my little chocolate bird that was RED? I've had leaky silver in black and blue Ameraucanas pop up before, and that kind of makes sense, but why would red show up in chocolate?

    I'm bummed, because he seems to have nice type and I had khaki plans! [​IMG] I got a hold of another chocolate roo this weekend, but his type is not as nice as this one.

    The roo in question was the result of a chocolate cuckoo roo over a black hen. He's only a few months old. Pics below:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    Red coming in on the shoulders? That is autosomal red, not a lack of melanizers. Unfortunately, not enough research on autosomal red to really know enough about it.
     
  3. Crunchie

    Crunchie Brook Valley Farm

    Mar 1, 2007
    Maryland
    It is also coming in on his hackle and saddle feathers. It's irking me, because it's ugly, and it's ruining my pretty bird! It makes a little bit more sense to me if it isn't a lack of melanizers (because if it was a lack of melanizers, wouldn't the color be lighter than the chocolate? Not bright, flaming, just-as-dark red?), but it doesn't, well, really make any sense...

    I'm reasonably sure (well, as sure as anyone can be about these things) that my black hen doesn't have anything odd going on in her background, but the cuckoo could be a different story. Could the chocolate cuckoo roo that I paired with the black to get this chocolate guy be hiding something?

    Here's a better picture (those very dark feathers on the shoulder look black on my computer screen--they aren't, they are just the darker chocolate color coming in over his wings):

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    Okay, that is a lack of melanizers. Another set of not sufficiently well-researched genes.
     
  5. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The problem with chocolate is that you must have the red modifiers to make the chocolate. If he were silver you would not get a good chocolate color. I would say he only carries only one melanotic gene. If you breed him to some good blacks and cull some; you should have want you want.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  6. Crunchie

    Crunchie Brook Valley Farm

    Mar 1, 2007
    Maryland
    Quote:Another set of not sufficiently well-researched genes to you, another set of not sufficiently understood genes to me. [​IMG]

    Thanks guys. [​IMG] See, I didn't know that red was involved in making chocolate (again with the lack of understanding on my part). I know how it works, just not what's behind it. Blacks I have plenty of, and I can put him over good black hens. Or I can not use him at all (there is no lack of birds around here [​IMG]). He's just the nicest smooth plain chocolate I have at the moment, aside from the color of course. I wanted to put him over a chocolate frizzle hen and get a few khaki frizzles, but I can use the other rooster with better color for that. I'm assuming that putting him with another chocolate will not help the case if he's lacking the melanizers to keep color dark, and I'd end up with a lot more leaky birds this way.

    Which brings me to another question: Could the fact that I bred cuckoo chocolate to black to get this chocolate have anything to do with why he's lacking melanizers? Could the barring genetics in the cuckoo play any part in this?
     
  7. baregretchen

    baregretchen Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Which brings me to another question: Could the fact that I bred cuckoo chocolate to black to get this chocolate have anything to do with why he's lacking melanizers? Could the barring genetics in the cuckoo play any part in this?

    Good question! [​IMG]
     
  8. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Barring does not play any roll in non black showing in a bird. Barred birds also need to be completely black or buff will show in their plumage.

    Tim
     
  9. Crunchie

    Crunchie Brook Valley Farm

    Mar 1, 2007
    Maryland
    Thanks, Tim. [​IMG] But this:

    Quote:I need help understanding (surprise, surprise. [​IMG] Apparently I need a lot of help). You mean that the black part of the barring needs to be completely black or buff will show? Or that barred should only be bred from blacks and "regular"/black barred birds(or cuckoo) or buff will show? I'm breeding barred birds and chocolate (well, chocolate cuckoo and black) and getting chocolate barred birds...it is definitely dun, not buff? And no sign of off-colored feathers on the chocolate barred/cuckoo birds or the black barred/cuckoo birds that I have hatched.

    Oh, my little mind. It boggles. [​IMG]
     
  10. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    Barring causes white bars (areas where pigment is not placed) in the feather. It does not matter whether the feathers contain black or gold pigment. In general, the more dilute the pigment is to begin with (blue vs black, lavender vs black, buff vs red, isabel vs red, etc.) the less obvious the barring is. But it would still be there.

    Thus, you can have red or lavender or buff or blue barred birds as well as the typical black barred ones. Crele has both red and black pigment that are barred as does golden cuckoo.
     

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