Chocolate mottled x paint silkies

[SnowHugs]

Can someone please gently explain to me exactly why crossing a chocolate mottled rooster with a paint hen is so looked down upon? I’m new to this, so I’m just trying to understand.

From what I have found from someone on a thread here is
Paint hen x chocolate mottled roo
25% chocolate females, 25% chocolate paint females, 25% black carrying chocolate males, 25% paint carrying chocolate males. All carrying mottled

So.. why is this discouraged? I thought splits were sought after? Especially with the chocolate hens, it seems like the cross would make their skin darker, and then carrying the mottling, it would make normal chocolate mottled when crossed back to the mottled rooster, right?

I’m not as familiar with the boys, but couldn’t they make both black and chocolate mottled offspring?

I’m so sorry if this is ignorant, I’m just naturally curious and new to this, so I want to learn

 

[Debbie292d]

I don't think there's a thing wrong with it. Paint and mottled work in different ways. I can't explain this scientifically, but Mottled is a gene, recessive, paint isn't.

A fact is that those mottleds you get, will have one gene of mottled and won't express it. They hatch looking mottled, but they lose that appearance. I've got one split mottled chocolate hen, and one split mottled black roo, and both have one white feather on their foot, otherwise are solid. You'd only get mottled to express if you bred two of those offspring together.

I don't believe we can get a bird to express both paint and mottled at the same time though, or how you would even know unless DNA tested.

If you bred a paint to a solid black/mottled, that's one way to test this. I have a dominant white pullet I may breed to my black roo/mottled and see what happens, but rather just stick with mottleds in one pen, paints in another.

Maybe @NatJ can help with the more technical part of this.

 

[Cloverr39]

Can someone please gently explain to me exactly why crossing a chocolate mottled rooster with a paint hen is so looked down upon? I’m new to this, so I’m just trying to understand.

It's not looked down upon, just has the potential to be messy. The reason I personally would discourage this is because it creates paints that carry mottled, which could get confusing once you breed them later down the line.

So.. why is this discouraged? I thought splits were sought after?

Breeding splits in general isn't bad by any means. But it should be kept track of, especially if you start to add other genes to chocolate and mottled, like paint, for example.
I'm not sure how sought after splits are, but I assume solid color, true-breeding mottled and chocolate mottled birds would sell better than a split any day, because with homozygous birds, you know what you're getting, and they will always pass those genes to their offspring.

Especially with the chocolate hens, it seems like the cross would make their skin darker, and then carrying the mottling, it would make normal chocolate mottled when crossed back to the mottled rooster, right?

If I remember correctly, chocolate dilutes not just feather color from black to brown, but skin color as well. That's why you don't see chocolates with very dark skin, it's because of the way those two genes interact. It's similar to how all mottled and cuckoo birds are light skinned. Chocolate doesn't inhibit fibro completely, but dilutes it slightly.
Though, I can no longer remember the exact source of this information, so someone can correct me if I'm misremembering this fact.

The chocolate split to mottled hens, when crossed back to the chocolate mottled rooster would produce chocolate split to mottled, and chocolate mottled chicks.

I’m not as familiar with the boys, but couldn’t they make both black and chocolate mottled offspring?

Depends on what you bred them to.
Black carrying chocolate and mottled male x chocolate carrying mottled hen would make both black and chocolate offspring, both mottled and split to mottled, as well as chicks with no mottling genes.
If you bred that male to a chocolate mottled hen, you'd get the same results, but all chicks would be either mottled or split to mottled.

 

[NatJ]

I don't believe we can get a bird to express both paint and mottled at the same time though, or how you would even know unless DNA tested.

I do not know for sure whether a chicken can express both paint and mottling at the same time.

I have tried playing with the chicken calculator https://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html
That makes it appear that paint expresses differently when the chicken has two mottling genes than when the chicken has one or no mottling genes.

But I do not know whether the calculator is correct in this or not.

(I started with the default genes, then changed the dropdown boxes to get E/E extended black, and I/i+ which should make it paint but the calculator doesn't model it right, and mo/mo for mottling which did make an image that looks "paint" or "pied" or something of the sort.)

If you bred a paint to a solid black/mottled, that's one way to test this. I have a dominant white pullet I may breed to my black roo/mottled and see what happens, but rather just stick with mottleds in one pen, paints in another.

Like you, I've thought of trying to test that out, but I haven't had the right combination of birds and time to do it.

 

[SnowHugs]

It's not looked down upon, just has the potential to be messy. The reason I personally would discourage this is because it creates paints that carry mottled, which could get confusing once you breed them later down the line.

Breeding splits in general isn't bad by any means. But it should be kept track of, especially if you start to add other genes to chocolate and mottled, like paint, for example.
I'm not sure how sought after splits are, but I assume solid color, true-breeding mottled and chocolate mottled birds would sell better than a split any day, because with homozygous birds, you know what you're getting, and they will always pass those genes to their offspring.

If I remember correctly, chocolate dilutes not just feather color from black to brown, but skin color as well. That's why you don't see chocolates with very dark skin, it's because of the way those two genes interact. It's similar to how all mottled and cuckoo birds are light skinned. Chocolate doesn't inhibit fibro completely, but dilutes it slightly.
Though, I can no longer remember the exact source of this information, so someone can correct me if I'm misremembering this fact.

The chocolate split to mottled hens, when crossed back to the chocolate mottled rooster would produce chocolate split to mottled, and chocolate mottled chicks.

Depends on what you bred them to.
Black carrying chocolate and mottled male x chocolate carrying mottled hen would make both black and chocolate offspring, both mottled and split to mottled, as well as chicks with no mottling genes.
If you bred that male to a chocolate mottled hen, you'd get the same results, but all chicks would be either mottled or split to mottled.

Thank you!
I asked in a silkie group and I was kinda slammed for even thinking of doing the crossing.

I was curious with the splits because breeders do seek out for them. They look darker, so closer to SOP, and they can help with the mottled projects to prevent hyper mottling, which people don’t want either. In fact, a few of the mottled chicks I got from a breeder are even offspring from some splits

 

[SnowHugs]

I do not know for sure whether a chicken can express both paint and mottling at the same time.

I have tried playing with the chicken calculator https://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html
That makes it appear that paint expresses differently when the chicken has two mottling genes than when the chicken has one or no mottling genes.

But I do not know whether the calculator is correct in this or not.

(I started with the default genes, then changed the dropdown boxes to get E/E extended black, and I/i+ which should make it paint but the calculator doesn't model it right, and mo/mo for mottling which did make an image that looks "paint" or "pied" or something of the sort.)


Like you, I've thought of trying to test that out, but I haven't had the right combination of birds and time to do it.

Thank you! I am really curious, but I’m getting a bit slammed for it innocent new breeder me. I wasn’t considering it just because I want a chocolate paint (I do want that though, but I was curious if it could help the mottled breeding

 

[SnowHugs]

I don't think there's a thing wrong with it. Paint and mottled work in different ways. I can't explain this scientifically, but Mottled is a gene, recessive, paint isn't.

A fact is that those mottleds you get, will have one gene of mottled and won't express it. They hatch looking mottled, but they lose that appearance. I've got one split mottled chocolate hen, and one split mottled black roo, and both have one white feather on their foot, otherwise are solid. You'd only get mottled to express if you bred two of those offspring together.

I don't believe we can get a bird to express both paint and mottled at the same time though, or how you would even know unless DNA tested.

If you bred a paint to a solid black/mottled, that's one way to test this. I have a dominant white pullet I may breed to my black roo/mottled and see what happens, but rather just stick with mottleds in one pen, paints in another.

Maybe @NatJ can help with the more technical part of this.

Thank you! I wasn’t exactly wanting to make them express the mottle and paint at the same time, but to have the mottle split and put back with the mottled rooster for just plain chocolate mottled chicks

 

[Debbie292d]

Thank you!
I asked in a silkie group and I was kinda slammed for even thinking of doing the crossing.

I was curious with the splits because breeders do seek out for them. They look darker, so closer to SOP, and they can help with the mottled projects to prevent hyper mottling, which people don’t want either. In fact, a few of the mottled chicks I got from a breeder are even offspring from some splits

If you're talking about that Silkie group on Facebook, I was a member for a few years, but left it as I got tired of some of those "know-it-alls" who, for one, are trying to get Satin Silkies turned into Satins, their own breed. I know an Exhibition breeder who was an APA judge. He told me to steer clear of that group, as most who speak out are stubborn and want silkies labeled how they want them labeled, and the APA will never do it. I would not listen to them.

A satin silkie, is just that, a satin silkie. Silkie is a breed, satin is a feather type. I do not breed satins here, but I picked up 8 silkie chicks a few days ago as they have nice buffs to bring in new genes to my line. But one was satin. It'll break my heart to sell him/her, and deal with the possibility that these other buffs all may kick out a satin. Ah well, people love these too.

 

[Debbie292d]

Like you, I've thought of trying to test that out, but I haven't had the right combination of birds and time to do it.

Let's collaborate this spring!

 

[SnowHugs]

If you're talking about that Silkie group on Facebook, I was a member for a few years, but left it as I got tired of some of those "know-it-alls" who, for one, are trying to get Satin Silkies turned into Satins, their own breed. I know an Exhibition breeder who was an APA judge. He told me to steer clear of that group, as most who speak out are stubborn and want silkies labeled how they want them labeled, and the APA will never do it. I would not listen to them.

A satin silkie, is just that, a satin silkie. Silkie is a breed, satin is a feather type. I do not breed satins here, but I picked up 8 silkie chicks a few days ago as they have nice buffs to bring in new genes to my line. But one was satin. It'll break my heart to sell him/her, and deal with the possibility that these other buffs all may kick out a satin. Ah well, people love these too.


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I’m sorry to hear that! They have been giving me a lot of good advice and have endured my many questions. That one crossing must have hit an odd nerve though. I don’t think I’m on the main silkie page, there hasn’t been any drama that I have seen on mine. Most of the breeders have even being doing a lot of kindness giveaways and are very friendly and giving