Choosing the correct food

[Rodrad]

I've not made specific study, however, a quick internet search turns up a few consistent reports in studies.

Basal rations used to examine amino-acid requirements usually do little more than slow down growth or maturation rates. However, we have now found that for the chick, depending somewhat on the strain used, tryptophan-deficient diets fed to chicks weighing less than 80–100 g completely stopped gain in weight and all, or nearly all, visible signs of subsequent maturation.(Paid article, I only read the summary)

Tryptophan in poultry nutrition: Impacts and mechanisms of action (Free Article, includes summations of prior studies, looks thorough)

Pathology and histology of dietary tryptophan deficiency in broiler chicks(small study, limited utility and focus)

Lessons learned regarding symptoms of tryptophan deficiency and excess from animal requirement studies (tl;dr: Small reductions in TR have significant effect, but even 10x "overfeeding" of TR was of limited detriment, so don't worry abotu "too much)

Wow, you found a lot of articles. Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it. Will read them.

I will wait to see what Kalmbach people will say about Tryptophan in their 44 supplement.

And, if I sub oats for corn I will have even slightly more TR in mixed feed than it is suggested by USDA. And, as you say, little above requirement will be ok. Also, protein will be quite above recommended level of 15% (more like over 23%).

Off hand thinking, if I use 75% oats and 25% Kalmbach supplement the cost could be about the same as buying their mixed feed for layers or even possibly my cost could be lower by getting a layer feed from local Rural King.

BTW, which feed do you use for layers?


thanks, have a good day,
Rod

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Wow, you found a lot of articles. Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it. Will read them.

I will wait to see what Kalmbach people will say about Tryptophan in poultry diet, in particular for layers.

thanks, have a good day,
Rod

Happy to help, and definitely interested in Kalmbach's response. Please share when they write back.

I was expecting you could likely go to a 2 corn, 1 oat, 1 K 122p Suppliment mix and hit your targets, but it would be nice to have greater confidence in the tryptophan numbers. Curious as to how that compares on a price basis, too.

 

[Rodrad]

Happy to help, and definitely interested in Kalmbach's response. Please share when they write back.

I was expecting you could likely go to a 2 corn, 1 oat, 1 K 122p Suppliment mix and hit your targets, but it would be nice to have greater confidence in the tryptophan numbers. Curious as to how that compares on a price basis, too.

I thought initially the same (ratio 2:1:1) but that would not bring TR to target. However, it may be enough (haven’t yet read articles you attached).
Yes, I will report back what I hear from Kalmbach about TR in their supplement.
I will also calculate the price for three cases:
25% K 122, 75% corn
25% K 122, 50% corn, 25% oats
25% K 122, 75% oats

 

[Rodrad]

Will read some more on the TRP in layers diet.
It appears pretty clearly that insufficient amount is quite detrimental in young, growing pullets. However, It is not quite directly related to egg production/quality, especially in younger layers, based on one article you attached. Here is the excerpt:

”Although it is not clear how Trp might affect egg production, it should be considered that Trp is a precursor involved in the synthesis of melatonin. Melatonin promotes the renewal of the ovarian cells by enhancing the gene expression level of mammalian target of rapamycin and protein biosynthesis (Hao et al., 2020). Melatonin also reduces the abundance of reactive oxygen species by increasing the total antioxidant capacity via the activation of antioxidant enzymes such as superoxide dismutase, as well as enhancing ovulation and the number of follicles produced, which could boost egg production in aged hens (Hao et al., 2020; Jia et al., 2016).”

However, there are few other studies which show that egg production and egg size is slightly increased as the TRP increases to even higher percent that USDA suggests, to 0.22% vs 0.16%!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes, as I said in one of my earlier post, I find the USDA nrcs numbers to be a little low based on some subsequent research..22 versus .16 doesn't really surprise me much.

 

[Rodrad]

Yes, as I said in one of my earlier post, I find the USDA nrcs numbers to be a little low based on some subsequent research..22 versus .16 doesn't really surprise me much.

While I am waiting to hear from Kalmbach I looked for several other complete feeds (even Kalmbach layer type feed) and I don’t see listed TRP!

which feed do you use and how much does it cost?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

While I am waiting to hear from Kalmbach I looked for several other complete feeds (even Kalmbach layer type feed) and I don’t see listed TRP!

which feed do you use and how much does it cost?

Triptophan isn't required to appear on labels, and thus doesn't. I use a local mill, and blend my own from their available feeds. The end result is NOT what I would recommend for the typical backyard owner, but I don't have the typical backyard flock or management practices.

What I do, however, do is look at the ingredient list. Closely. Knowing the problems with corn, which is almost always the first ingredient, I start looking for ingredients to cover corn's deficiencies. I like to see soy, because its one of the few complete proteins available in the plant world. In the absence of soy, I start looking for fish meal or a similar animal protein source.

Just swapped feeds at the urging of my main buyer, he wanted a non GMO, soy-free blend for his own product advertising, and I'm paying about $0.283 per pound, 500# at a time. When my pasture is producing, that will last me almost a month and a half. When its not, that's about 30 days. My prior feed mix was about $0.23x / lb. I've not been on the new stuff long enough to note any changes.

 

[Rodrad]

Triptophan isn't required to appear on labels, and thus doesn't. I use a local mill, and blend my own from their available feeds. The end result is NOT what I would recommend for the typical backyard owner, but I don't have the typical backyard flock or management practices.

What I do, however, do is look at the ingredient list. Closely. Knowing the problems with corn, which is almost always the first ingredient, I start looking for ingredients to cover corn's deficiencies. I like to see soy, because its one of the few complete proteins available in the plant world. In the absence of soy, I start looking for fish meal or a similar animal protein source.

Just swapped feeds at the urging of my main buyer, he wanted a non GMO, soy-free blend for his own product advertising, and I'm paying about $0.283 per pound, 500# at a time. When my pasture is producing, that will last me almost a month and a half. When its not, that's about 30 days. My prior feed mix was about $0.23x / lb. I've not been on the new stuff long enough to note any changes.

I am surprised that TRP is not required to be on labels. How do you get the proper TRP (when it is not listed on many items)? In your mixed feed do you know the percentage of all amino acids (9?) as well all minerals and vitamins?

Is soy bean a more cost effective component as compared to Oats? I know soy flour has about 2x more protein. How does cost compare?

I lost the receipt for the cost of 50lbs Kalmbach 122 supplement so I can not now calculate the cost of my mixed feed (3 proposed blends). I calculated cost few weeks ago and as I recall with 25/75 mix of K 122 and corn It was around $12/50 lbs ($0.24/lb). Will have the exact cost on Monday.

I don’t plan to go for non GMO grains. It looks like your cost with such type of grain increased by about 23%! I assume if you market your eggs such increased in cost of feed can be justified by higher sales return.

 

[Rodrad]

U_Stormcrow
This is an excerpt from feedstrategy.com which states very accurately the things you are aware of:
“As it happens, tryptophan is practically always limiting in most commercial diets for pigs and poultry, meaning their feeds based on cereals and vegetable proteins do not contain enough natural (from wholesome ingredients) of this amino acid. The problem becomes worse when we consider modern diets are formulated based on the principle of low-protein, which implies natural protein sources are substituted by feed-grade amino acids to reduce wasted amino acids above animal needs. A rather complicated matter, but the focus here is tryptophan that is needed in most diets. And the real problem is that its cost is often 10 times as high (or even higher) than the rest of available commercial feed-grade amino acids. Thus, many nutrition professionals prefer to use limited amounts or none at all.”

 

[U_Stormcrow]

U_Stormcrow
This is an excerpt from feedstrategy.com which states very accurately the things you are aware of:
“As it happens, tryptophan is practically always limiting in most commercial diets for pigs and poultry, meaning their feeds based on cereals and vegetable proteins do not contain enough natural (from wholesome ingredients) of this amino acid. The problem becomes worse when we consider modern diets are formulated based on the principle of low-protein, which implies natural protein sources are substituted by feed-grade amino acids to reduce wasted amino acids above animal needs. A rather complicated matter, but the focus here is tryptophan that is needed in most diets. And the real problem is that its cost is often 10 times as high (or even higher) than the rest of available commercial feed-grade amino acids. Thus, many nutrition professionals prefer to use limited amounts or none at all.”

Which is why I look for soybean meal and/or fish meal in the ingredients list. Sunflower seeds are also a good source of Tryptophan (0.3), Methionine (0.435), Lysine (0.825) but sadly a HUGE source of fat (often over 50%).

Its all a balancing act.