Coccidios Not Responding to Corid or Sulmet

[Haunted55]

I have never in my entire reading heard of coccidiosis causing paralysis, nor have I heard this from a vet.

There are 9 named types of coccidiosis, however, there are new mutated unnamed types that kill without bloody poop which can be passed down through the parent stock. The ONLY symptom is lethargy, then sudden death, never paralysis that I've ever heard of. This information comes from necropsies done by state vets in two different states on two different sets of birds.

Any mention of necrotic enteritis?


ETA: I sure hope you can figure this out. I'm so sorry for the stress this has to be causing you.

Yes, this Vet did mention a possible enteritis in passing. That's why I had given the Sulmet, just in case that was the cause. It had no effect. I gave this to all of the chickens, old ones, new ones. Boy was that Vet mad I had given the Sulmet.

Thank-you, I have to figure it out. The only other thing I could do is cull them all and I refuse to do that. The ones still alive seem happy and not in any pain. If they were or were too far gone, I'd cull just to stop their suffering. But I just can't bring myself to wipe out all of these birds because it might be a cocci. If the college Vets can prove it to me with no doubt remaining, I'll have no choice. There would be no sense in keeping birds that are 'typhoid marys' and cannot be cured. But then we come to the ground. It's poison now. It would take years for it to be clear of this, if ever. No amount of liming [another thing I do] or wood ash is going to get rid of it. Even with the cold we have here during the winters, this stuff will survive. If it is coccidiosis.

 

[Haunted55]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps031
here's an eye link

The bird we had to cull for blindness had shown changes in her eyes. No discharge or anything to make you think it could be bacterial, no ammonia build up in their house. Her irises changed. They weren't quite the grey color in the textbook pictures, but they weren't the brown they had been either. The pupil was distorted somewhat. This made me think it had to Marek's causing the blindness.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

I really hate to do this but is there anyone out there who could direct me to BYC articles or any for that matter that would deal with a form of Coccidiosis that shows paralysis and doesn't respond to 3 seperate courses of Corid and finally a full treatment of Sulmet. All of these birds have been wormed with Safeguard as well.

I just received a call from the Vet who did a necropsy on one of my birds I believed had Marek's because of the paralysis that kept showing up in the birds I have lost. I mean textbook, one leg forward and one leg back paralysis. One bird pulled out of a mild case, only one leg involved but in the second bout, a month later, she succumbed to what I believe was the occular form of Marek's. Lumps around the eyes that had not been there before and blindness. According to this Vet's findings, it is either the food is not giving the proper nutrition or it's coccidios.

Painful, just to imagine goin' through this; sorry for your frustration and pain. I'm not claiming to be capable of giving accurate answers based upon my own limited experience, nor should you misconstrue my response to be medical advice. But, I'm really good at diggin' up 'n through informations, and will help in any way I can.

You've done an excellent job of tracking this, and I suspect the answer's in the details you provided. Leaving my emotions aside, and lookin' at this in a more coldly logical manner (your flock needs you to do the same for now):


1. Although the symptoms sound so similar to Marek's, the manner in which this condition presents isn't consistent with this infection. If it is Marek's? It's sorta like the black plague during the dark ages ... you'll lose 10-50% of your flock, as there is no treatment, and one feather can start the whole process over even months from now, which is why the suggested best practice is humane disposal of all stock (infected chickens carry the virus for life, even if they've shown no symptoms). Can't rule it out, but closing the barn door ain't gonna make any difference now: I suggest you simply IGNORE MAREK'S for now, and move on to other possible* explanations.

*Although some may suggest Lymphoid Leucosis, it does *not* result in the paralysis that you've encountered.

URL: http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/webpages/cart-6ptvyh?open
URL: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/jul01/marek0701.htm?pf=1
URL: http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/mareks2.pdf


2. Although various strains of coccidia may be present, I don't think even severe cases of coccidiosis would cover all the symptoms. and I can't imagine how treating it now would be of any immediate relief, as doing so now may well compound the problem. In fact? It may actually be the cause of their symptoms, so I'd consider temporarily withdrawing treatment/prevention for parasites, and clean up all the droppings you can. Removing them to an isolated area upon wire with fresh equipment/supplies would be best.

In a thread I'd started about nutrition for keets, I branched of to discuss Amprolium at length, and the manner in which it suppresses the coccidia, but you've much reading of more learned men to do.

Merck's Veterinary Manual,
Coccidiosis; Introduction.
URL: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/200800.htm


3. With the above possibilities removed, the more *likely* causes that have symptoms and characteristics that fit as well or better than Marek's are:


A. Drug and/or chemical toxicities, which sounds plausible. Most esp. when considering the different things that you've tried -- many interact, and most accumulate; wonder if it could be possible that they're gettin' one treatment from you, another from the feed, and yet another from the floor or run?

For Aflatoxin Poisoning, see:
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/aflatoxin/

Submit a list and schedule of what's been used, 'n I'll see what I can come up with.


B. Botulism is an intoxication caused by ingesting Clostridium botulinum exotoxin. Absolute identification would be both slow and expensive, but C botulinum is a gram-positive, sporeforming, anaerobic bacterium that is found more often than any other in chickens. Controlling flies and cleaning/disinfecting the entire are with products effective against spore-forming bacteria while the flock is away would be a good idea, anyhow. And, if they are infected? I'd give type C antitoxin a try.

See: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/205400.htm


I hope you find what you/they need. Some additional resources that you might find useful:


POULTRY DISEASE DIAGNOSIS BASED ON SYMPTOMS
See: http://www.clemson.edu/public/lph/ahp/disease_links/images/poultrydiseases.pdf
or: http://www.poultry.msstate.edu/extension/pdf/diseases_poultry_diagnosis_symptoms.pdf

Diagnosing Chicken Diseases
See: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4842865_diagnosing-chicken-diseases.html

External Symptoms for Diagnosing Chicken Diseases
See: http://www.apa-abayouthpoultryclub.... SYMPTOMS FOR DIAGNOSING POULTRY DISEASES.pdf

 

[Haunted55]

Cowcreekgeek, thank-you for the info. Some of this I hadn't seen and I finally finished going through it all and hopefully taken it all in. Standing back and really thinking about what has been going on here, this is what I have come up with and why.

When the problems first started here, I was unable to find a Vet. who would see poultry. I called the Maine University as well and was told it would be a 1 - 3 month wait to get any samples in for necropsy. Well that would help me a lot, right? We had to go it alone here with help from BYC and the animal experts at Jeffers. When the first chickens started showing signs of paralysis, I had no idea what was going on. I thought at first the poor things had been stomped by the others in the brooders. Removed them and put them into another tote with vitamins in their water hoping to speed their recovery. It didn't help. In fact, looking back at it, I would take pieces of bread and soak them in the vitamin electrolyte mix and hand feed them 3 - 4 times a day. I did this because they had such a hard time getting to their food and water and most of the time, when they finally got to it they would have spilled it as they had to drag themselves to it. Set totes up with water and food right in front of each chicken, used the small quart size for each bird. Some would die and some lingered.

I read everything I could find and from all that I was seeing here it had to be Marek's. Some of the loses did have the yellow droppings and I realize now that could be either the Marek's or coccidiosis [or let's face it, a whole bunch of other poultry diseases as well]. If it had been a vitamin deficiency, the vitamins should have shown some improvement during the weeks this was going on. ChickensAreSweet, when you posted and I looked at that picture I really thought, "Wow! that's it!", but it couldn't have been. For one thing, my birds were older, fully feathered. They were getting the vitamins in their water, even if there is something wrong with the feed and I haven't ruled that out yet. Even so, why have some birds shown illness and others not while eating the same feed, in the same brooding area? Now that's a poser.

The day we culled 24 of the birds, they were the ones showing paralysis. Either 1 leg or both. By this time I had read everything I could find on Marek's and believed that's what it was. These birds were too far gone to recover and were probably in extreme pain because of the sciatic involvement. Vitamins didn't help, fresh greens, mealworms, cat food, scrambled eggs, nothing helped, it was time.

Some of the birds who died didn't have paralysis when they died, they were wasted, pale comb, ruffled feathers, and they had yellow poop. Even treating them with the Corid did nothing to change it. Those, for the most part, were the ones we would find just dead. Some of the birds found would have no symptoms whatsoever prior to their death. Be running around doing chicken stuff and the next morning, just gone.

The schedule for the Corid was 7/9 - 7/15, then again on 7/29 - 8/4, the final time was 8/9 - 8/15. The course of Sulmet was started on 8/19 and finished 8/23.

I've thought of the toxicity myself. I had always used a vinager and hot water solution to clean up after the chickens. Either coop or brooder. I have always used DE, spaghnum moss, sand and a couple of handfuls of wood ash in the chicken's dusting box. Their run has always been top dressed with handfuls of wood ash as well and raked into the dirt. It was only after I thought it was Marek's here that I started using bleach to clean. I also added barn lime to the run and the ground near the chicken house. Since the cleaning was done first with the half and half bleach/water spray and then power washed off of every surface, I can't see this as being a problem. With the drains in the floor and me sweeping any puddles to them, there was no chance for this to stay and dry on the floors. The 3/4 water to 1/4 bleach solution, it shouldn't be an issue. From what I read, this is safer than us using a spray of lysol on something. Bleach breaks down as it dries and becomes salts. Could there have been residues from that? Yes, there might be, but not enough to cause the symptoms here.

Most of these birds that have died never made it to the outdoors. They were moved from their brooders into new pens, in a new room in my chicken house. There were no residuals from previous poultry where they were housed. Could they have been exposed to dust from the original chickens, or to something coming in the windows? Of course. If so, it happened early before I knew what was going on.

Of my original hatch of 13, that wasn't vaccinated for Marek's, I have 6 birds left. 3 hens, and 3 roosters. They all seem to be in perfect health, fat, sassy and the girls are laying. I currently have some of their eggs in the final days of hatching right now. The rest of my hatch died with paralysis as did 10 of the 12 I got from TS. Some of the other birds I got from McMurray's and a local farm store also died with paralysis and these birds were vaccinated for Marek's. The rest didn't have paralysis, they just died.

Now here's something that's odd. I purchased 12 Dark Cornish birds this year, vaccinated for Marek's. Of these birds, 10 survive. 1 bird showed some paralysis in the left wing, it held it stretched back and it was frozen there. It was one that we culled. The other just died, small and no weight to it,feathered. Only 2 loses with this breed of bird. The other breeds, some were wiped out totally, some experienced a 90% loss, and some 40% - 50% loss. What is different with the cornish? If I knew that, then I think I would have my answers. They were fed the same, housed with the others, nothing at all different with the care. Just the birds. The only thing I have seen with them is they do not have all of their feathers on their lower back. they are coming to the end of a molt now, but they didn't have them before. I'll have to wait and see how they finish coming in. No mites, I checked.

I don't know if this helps or just muddies the water even further. I still think this was/is Marek's. There is probably something else going on but the first and underlying disease is marek's.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Cowcreekgeek, thank-you for the info. Some of this I hadn't seen and I finally finished going through it all and hopefully taken it all in ...

[snipped]

Most gracious of you, considering that I've not been able to give any clear answers. I've got that sorta sick feelin' in my stomach, 'cause I erroneously elected to follow the small-flock all-natural philosophy; my first twenty-six chicks, I regret to say, were not innoculated.

[snipped] ...
I don't know if this helps or just muddies the water even further. I still think this was/is Marek's. There is probably something else going on but the first and underlying disease is marek's.

You've done an excellent job of layin' out all you've gone through, and I strongly suspect that Marek's was responsible for *some* of your losses and, further, that you've had several things hit you at/about the same time ... you've been forced to deal w/ what I don't believe you do a thing about, save for waitin' for nature to finish her course.

There are always some that are more/less likely to be taken by viral/bacterial infection (i.e. ten generations before my own, many of the Powhatan were wiped out by what settlers brought here with them and, despite several most intentional efforts to do so, they never wiped out us all ~'-)

Knowing definitively that they have been exposed to Marek's would most likely help you decide how to proceed, thinking more long-term. The disinfection of common areas will not erase what they themselves carry, but it should eliminate many of the other possibilities from being a problem in the future. Again? It hurts/frustrates me, knowing that I can do nothing, so I can only imagine how hard this has all been on you.

 

[seminolewind]

I really hate to do this but is there anyone out there who could direct me to BYC articles or any for that matter that would deal with a form of Coccidiosis that shows paralysis and doesn't respond to 3 seperate courses of Corid and finally a full treatment of Sulmet. All of these birds have been wormed with Safeguard as well.

I just received a call from the Vet who did a necropsy on one of my birds I believed had Marek's because of the paralysis that kept showing up in the birds I have lost. I mean textbook, one leg forward and one leg back paralysis. One bird pulled out of a mild case, only one leg involved but in the second bout, a month later, she succumbed to what I believe was the occular form of Marek's. Lumps around the eyes that had not been there before and blindness. According to this Vet's findings, it is either the food is not giving the proper nutrition or it's coccidios.

Haunted. Coccidiosis and Marek's go hand in hand. But it's most likely, judging by your flock history, that the bird may have Marek's. I had 5 birds in June vaccinated for Marek's at a day old. 4 months later 5 died from opportunistic infections. 3 from coccidiosis that showed no symptoms till they dropped over dead from hemmorhages. 2 that got an eye infection that took them in 3 days. Marek's wipes out their immune system so Coccidiosis walks in and can cause necrotic enteritis as it eats away at the intestinal tissues.

I've just had a silkie die from Marek's, her symptoms were she just slowed down more and more and ended up gasping for air and died. The next day, another silkie just went catatonic. I don't think she could see, and if you positioned her body, it stayed that way. I euthanized her, she would have starved to death.

If there is alot of Marek's virus on your property, the concentration can overwhelm the birds with the vaccines and they will get it.

For every classic symptom of Marek's I've had, there has been a variation or non-classic symptom. There are more virulent strains that don't play by the rules. They show paralysis but not one leg foward one back. My older ones just waste away and die, but look happy up to the end, and seem like they're eating. Some go into remission for a time.

You have a history of Marek's. You're flock history supports it. You should assume that your chickens die from Marek's due to your necropsies backing up the symptoms and history. They can catch many other things because Marek's wipes out their immune system. If you have a strong strain of Marek's, you can have clusters of birds die, like sometimes one a day or one a week or so. But there are no rules to Marek's. You can have all the classic symptoms, variations of symptoms, or None at all. My first death was a silkie that had All the classic symptoms. The next few just wasted. Then another adult had paralysis, and wasted. Then 10 chicks died at one a week from paralysis and wasting, and gasping. A few more adults wasted. Then an 18 month old roo -well I just happened to see that one of his pupils was not round. He napped more but was acting normal up till 2 days before he died.

There are many infections that are secondary to Marek's. And many many chickens do not get classic symptoms because of the more virulent strains attacking different organs.

 

[centrarchid]

Step back and consider possibility even though vet can detect signs of cocciodosis, that it is possible another infectious agent is involved. Based on initial post it is possible infectious agent endemic to your rearing facilites. You might be able to controll by removing all birds and cleaning everything thoroughly. From that point on avoid mixing birds of different sources / age groups. One of my brooder units has been used repeatedly for combined lots of small broods of different ages, some where pulled from hens in pasture. Losses followed pattern as described until I began using antibiotic in water which resulted in almost immediate stop of losses. I still do not know identity of infectious agent but both keeping groups separate and using antibiotic has provided effective control three seasons in a row after losses noted early in a given production season.

 

[Haunted55]

Step back and consider possibility even though vet can detect signs of cocciodosis, that it is possible another infectious agent is involved. Based on initial post it is possible infectious agent endemic to your rearing facilites. You might be able to controll by removing all birds and cleaning everything thoroughly. From that point on avoid mixing birds of different sources / age groups. One of my brooder units has been used repeatedly for combined lots of small broods of different ages, some where pulled from hens in pasture. Losses followed pattern as described until I began using antibiotic in water which resulted in almost immediate stop of losses. I still do not know identity of infectious agent but both keeping groups separate and using antibiotic has provided effective control three seasons in a row after losses noted early in a given production season.

I have cleaned everything thoroughly 6 times this summer. Well enough that I've burned my lungs twice, the emergency room loves me. Short of burning it to the ground and building again, I don't know what else to do. This building is all painted inside, no uncoated surfaces, no bare wood. Only thing I haven't been able to get to yet is whitewashing the walls and floors. Maybe that will help....the old timers did it for a reason.

I was giving an antibiotic, to the birds in my hospital room. Duramycin 10. This little girl was on it a week before she died. I just lost another, a roo, from this group as well. They were both severly anemic with very pale combs.

 

[Haunted55]

Haunted. Coccidiosis and Marek's go hand in hand. But it's most likely, judging by your flock history, that the bird may have Marek's. I had 5 birds in June vaccinated for Marek's at a day old. 4 months later 5 died from opportunistic infections. 3 from coccidiosis that showed no symptoms till they dropped over dead from hemmorhages. 2 that got an eye infection that took them in 3 days. Marek's wipes out their immune system so Coccidiosis walks in and can cause necrotic enteritis as it eats away at the intestinal tissues.

I've just had a silkie die from Marek's, her symptoms were she just slowed down more and more and ended up gasping for air and died. The next day, another silkie just went catatonic. I don't think she could see, and if you positioned her body, it stayed that way. I euthanized her, she would have starved to death.

If there is alot of Marek's virus on your property, the concentration can overwhelm the birds with the vaccines and they will get it.

For every classic symptom of Marek's I've had, there has been a variation or non-classic symptom. There are more virulent strains that don't play by the rules. They show paralysis but not one leg foward one back. My older ones just waste away and die, but look happy up to the end, and seem like they're eating. Some go into remission for a time.

You have a history of Marek's. You're flock history supports it. You should assume that your chickens die from Marek's due to your necropsies backing up the symptoms and history. They can catch many other things because Marek's wipes out their immune system. If you have a strong strain of Marek's, you can have clusters of birds die, like sometimes one a day or one a week or so. But there are no rules to Marek's. You can have all the classic symptoms, variations of symptoms, or None at all. My first death was a silkie that had All the classic symptoms. The next few just wasted. Then another adult had paralysis, and wasted. Then 10 chicks died at one a week from paralysis and wasting, and gasping. A few more adults wasted. Then an 18 month old roo -well I just happened to see that one of his pupils was not round. He napped more but was acting normal up till 2 days before he died.

There are many infections that are secondary to Marek's. And many many chickens do not get classic symptoms because of the more virulent strains attacking different organs.

Seminolewind, I just wish they'd get the necropsy report to me. What that Vet who did the necropsy said doesn't make sense to me. He told me the bird had never been exposed to marek's. Now think about this, that bird was vaccinated for marek's, of course it was exposed. He also said there was a spot on the liver and it was enlarged. Okay, enlargement from the enteritis but what's the spot? Why was her heart undersized? So many questions and so far no answers. I still think there is something about the cornish. Why weren't they hit the same? They were in the same groups as the others and still are until I can get more buildings up.

I'm so sorry you're still losing birds as well. I was reading one of the links given in this thread and they're working on strain 5????!!!???? Oh joy! This is crazy, I don't know whether to vaccinated the birds I've got hatching or not. I suppose I will as I already bought it but will it do any good? I will say this again because it may be important to someone else. The birds that were showing symptoms were finally allowed to go outside to range. Most days I let my BB turkeys out as well. I know, I know, a no-no, never, ever, let your turkeys run or be any where near chickens. BUT, a big one too, as soon as I let the little birds outside and they do like to hang with the turkeys, they started getting better. Seriously. I asked the owner of a hatchery about it and he thought that maybe they were basically revaccinated by being with the turkeys. Hey, makes as much sense as anything else at this point. What do I have to lose at this point?

 

[Haunted55]

Most gracious of you, considering that I've not been able to give any clear answers. I've got that sorta sick feelin' in my stomach, 'cause I erroneously elected to follow the small-flock all-natural philosophy; my first twenty-six chicks, I regret to say, were not innoculated.

You've done an excellent job of layin' out all you've gone through, and I strongly suspect that Marek's was responsible for *some* of your losses and, further, that you've had several things hit you at/about the same time ... you've been forced to deal w/ what I don't believe you do a thing about, save for waitin' for nature to finish her course.

There are always some that are more/less likely to be taken by viral/bacterial infection (i.e. ten generations before my own, many of the Powhatan were wiped out by what settlers brought here with them and, despite several most intentional efforts to do so, they never wiped out us all ~'-)

Knowing definitively that they have been exposed to Marek's would most likely help you decide how to proceed, thinking more long-term. The disinfection of common areas will not erase what they themselves carry, but it should eliminate many of the other possibilities from being a problem in the future. Again? It hurts/frustrates me, knowing that I can do nothing, so I can only imagine how hard this has all been on you.

Lol, I have learned and if I can help one person from having to live this, then I guess I'd have to say it was worth it all. I appreciate all you and everyone else has done here. Just knowing that I am not alone in this, is a big help getting through the day. I will probably never have an official report proving the Marek's. I know what I saw when we did the necropsy and it looked just like the pictures, I found online, showing the organ involvement with Marek's. At the end of the spine there were tumors, the liver was enlarged and had the rings with the spots. Can I show you pictures now? Nope, I can't. Never even thought of taking pictures. It was hard enough cutting up my poor little bird. Maybe stupid, but I like each and every one of my birds. Most have names. Some I haven't found one for them yet.

As for how to proceed, I don't know. I believe there is Marek's here. No...I know there is Marek's here. So do I vaccinate or do I play God and not do so....I just don't know. I think that if I do vaccinate, it may reinforce any immunities they will get from the parents or it may bring it out with a vengence. It's a crap shoot either way as far as I can see. All I can see to do now is listen, read and go by gut feelings.