Worming your chickens will not control cocci. When you have an outbreak of cocci you must treat the entire flock with the dosage recommended of amprolium for 5-7 days , then 1/2 the dosage for another 5-7 days and then 1/2 that dose again for a further 5-7 days. That's a total of 3 weeks treatment. By reducing the dosage you will help your chickens build resistance to the coccidia . There is no withholding period on amprolium. You also need to look at the environment . Keep the coop dry around feeders and elevate your feeders and water off the ground. Cocci thrive in moist areas.
Your right...I'm not trying to "scaremonger" anyone. As I stated, it's something to think about and something that everyone should research more on their own. That's why I specifically stated that exact point, as well as that it "could" be a "potential" problem and that I "have not seen formal studies" done in birds. I think I made my position pretty clear rather then stating absolutes. I do appreciate all the links and info you posted. My avian vet has recommended not to give my birds garlic on a long term basis for the reason's I noted in my post so that's what I have chosen to do.
It's worth mentioning that there are many vets and doctors worldwide who do recommend garlic and other natural therapies, and use it on their own animals and families as well, despite other vets and doctors believing and recommending otherwise.
Schools of thought and levels of education vary everywhere even in a highly trained profession, there are gaping holes of ignorance everywhere, any honest professional will acknowledge that. There are still plenty of vets out there who don't believe natural therapies work, not because they have proof they don't, but because they're ignorant of the proof that they do, and the mechanisms by which they work.
It'd be interesting to see what your vet's opinion on the studies and information I posted is, especially if the reason they recommend you not give your birds garlic long term is based on that quote about disulfides causing hemolytic anemia as you say.
The part of your previous post I specifically addressed, in that novel length post I wrote before, is this:
Quote:
Given that disulfides don't cause anemia in normal individuals on normal diets, in fact I've yet to see the conclusive evidence they cause it at all, it's a statement that needed some clarification.
If your vet bases their opinion on this belief quoted above, without qualification or stating what form and dosage of disulfides, then perhaps it's time to shop around for a more educated vet, no offense intended. I'm not dismissing the possibility of one or more forms of disulfides causing HBA, in fact I expect it is likely in some rare predisposed individuals, just haven't seen anything solid to support it.
I'd be concerned about any vet advising against it in such broad terms, no doubt recommending more harmful alternatives instead, and failing to understand that organic disulfides are a natural part of the organism and are vital to life. We rely on vets to know such things, but I've heard some serious errors of comprehension from many cherished vets being quoted by their devoted customers on this forum.
I'm not sure you read it all since you appear to have responded to something nobody said nor suggested.
The OP's post about worming them once a month is in direct response to cafarmgirl's comment that I quoted to clarify things just before. I'll re-quote it to make it clearer:
Correct, I was not suggesting that deworming would help if it was coccidiosis. Just that a fecal sample could help tell the OP if cocci actually is the culprit here or perhaps if there maybe is a heavy worm load contributing to what they are seeing in the chickens poop. Have to start somewhere and that's probably where I'd start.
Chooks4life: I will see if I can have further conversation with my vet next time I see him. I think he made his recommendation based on the fact that there are no poultry studies that have been done so we really don't know what long term effects of regular, ongoing use might be over time in poultry.
exactly what lime is it that they can ingest. I want to start this method of lime &garlic. don't have cocci, but if I can avoid it, all the better. Is it in their feed everyday? weekly? Thanks for sharing.
exactly what lime is it that they can ingest. I want to start this method of lime &garlic. don't have cocci, but if I can avoid it, all the better. Is it in their feed everyday? weekly? Thanks for sharing.
I use the lime for treating the ground, not adding to their feed, but there are a few things you can use for that depending on what you're targeting. Specifically though I use the sort you can add to their feed, it's labeled according to its use for both treating the soil and adding calcium to their diet.
I haven't had the need to use it in their feed so can't offer you advice there if you wanted to use it to boost calcium levels, but others do use it for that. Oyster shells should do the job for you though. Dolomite is another good one especially if you want to feed it to them, as it's magnesium as well as calcium whereas the lime is just calcium, basically; your body and animals' bodies too require both in order to make the most of either. Most vitamins and minerals are linked like that, they require the interaction of other nutrients to be processed properly which is why natural forms are better than isolated compounds as a general rule of thumb because they contain the right spectrum and balance to be utilized by the body.
I can't say what it may be labeled as in your area, since that varies quite widely, but it's just plain calcium carbonate. It will be labeled for use in animal/stock feed as well; if it's not, then it won't be the right one.
It seems there is possibly no industry standard for labeling it, since in my state 'Aglime' is the right sort, but in the next state 'Aglime' is a different sort and unsafe for feeding, and in America, the UK etc it varies widely... Here what is labeled as 'hydrated agricultural lime' can either be the right stuff in one state or the wrong stuff in another. About the best advice I can give you there is to use the type that is specifically labeled for both soil treatment and animal consumption.
Here's a bit of info on lime controlling diseases --- but they've used the wrong lime, or at least not one I use. I do NOT recommend using quicklime, as it's caustic, obviously. Not sure why they've decided calcium carbonate is not 'related to poultry production' since many farmers have used it, and many still use it. Also not sure why they've said that crushed limestone shouldn't be used in poultry houses --- as it's commonly used by poultry keepers including many on this forum. Commercial growers often have different practices from smaller growers anyway, still, it's some useful info.
Calcium carbonate is the active ingredient in agricultural lime, and is created when Ca ions in hard water react with carbonate ions creating limescale. It is commonly used medicinally as a calcium supplement or as an antacid, but excessive consumption can be hazardous.
The vast majority of calcium carbonate used in industry is extracted by mining or quarrying. Pure calcium carbonate (e.g. for food or pharmaceutical use), can be produced from a pure quarried source (usually marble).
Alternatively, calcium carbonate is prepared from calcium oxide. Water is added to give calcium hydroxide, and carbon dioxide is passed through this solution to precipitate the desired calcium carbonate, referred to in the industry as precipitated calcium carbonate (PCC):[5]
Eggshells, snail shells and most seashells are predominantly calcium carbonate and can be used as industrial sources of that chemical. [8] Oyster shells have enjoyed recent recognition as a source of dietary calcium, but are also a practical industrial source.[9][10] While not practical as an industrial source, dark green vegetables such as Broccoli and Kale contain dietarily significant amounts of calcium carbonate.[11]
Carbonate is found frequently in geologic settings and constitute an enormous carbon reservoir. Calcium carbonate occurs as aragonite and calcite. The carbonate minerals form the rock types: limestone, chalk, marble, travertine, tufa, and others. Purity of Calcium Carbonate has been found in some mines to be 99.2% pure.[12]
Calcium carbonate is added to swimming pools, as a pH corrector for maintaining alkalinity and offsetting the acidic properties of the disinfectant agent.
Health and dietary applications
500-milligram calcium supplements made from calcium carbonate
Calcium carbonate is used in the production of toothpaste and has seen a resurgence as a food preservative and color retainer, when used in or with products such as organic apples or food.[22]
Excessive calcium intake can lead to hypercalcemia, complications of which include vomiting, abdominal pain and altered mental status.[23]
As a food additive it is designated E170;[24] INS number 170. Used as an acidity regulator, anticaking agent, stabiliser or colour it is approved for usage in the EU,[25] USA[26] and Australia and New Zealand.[27]
It is used in some soy milk and almond milk products as a source of dietary calcium; one study suggests that calcium carbonate might be as bioavailable as the calcium in cow's milk.[28]
Calcium carbonate is also used as a firming agent in many canned or bottled vegetable products.
I don't recommend just adding it to their food as generally they will choose how much they need and that's easier when they're receiving it in forms other than powder.
It's very useful for making the soil healthier, controlling odor and pathogens and so forth, but as you can see don't just assume anything labeled 'agricultural lime' will be safe as there are conflicts of definition everywhere. Calcium carbonate is what you're after there, not any of the other forms.
As with any nutrient or element essential for life, too much can be fatal, which is where feeding pieces large enough for them to avoid can be helpful. That said they will often simply refuse food that is overly high in any given nutrient, but then again they'll also often refuse strange new foods, or eat them sparingly, probably so their guts have some time to adjust. Also toxicity due to excessive nutrient intake is almost always a long term issue, it takes a long time to build up that far and then takes a long time to kill, and force feeding is usually required to cause such excessive intake as the animals will reject it given a choice. Feeding normal amounts, and letting your birds free range, make it a very unlikely scenario to ever occur.
With the garlic, it's the sulfur compound levels specifically that controls the cocci, so dried granulated garlic should be fine, you can buy that from most produce stores that supply livestock feed... Or at least you can in Australia. People in America seem to have issues finding it. There are numerous online shops where you can buy large tubs of crushed raw garlic, dried granulated garlic, etc, which may be easier to use; specifically those selling to horse owners would be more likely to supply bulk garlic products for more reasonable prices than some supplement places sell it for.
Here you can get it for as low as $6 a kilo of dried garlic but I've seen prices in some places up around $15 for a quarter of a kilo, which is just a ripoff. Many people use it for their horses, cattle, and other livestock so affordable options will be around, though it may take some digging to find.
If it's dried you'd need to use less than if it's raw since it'd be concentrated, so a small pinch or sprinkle per bird would be fine.
Your profile doesn't say where you live so I don't know how easy or otherwise it may be to get for you. For disease I use raw garlic, freshly minced, as it has numerous powerful natural antibiotics in it, but even using dried and granulated garlic works for many things. Anyway, general dosage is one clove per adult bird per day, but you can skip days or even do it once a week and it will still have a big impact. I start feeding it with their very first meal, never had any issues with it nor heard of anyone who has, and also never had any issues with cocci thanks to the garlic.
If you don't already ferment, or at least soak overnight, their grains/seeds etc, it's worth looking into as it makes everything more bioavailable to them, so less food waste occurs, but also does wonders for their health as well. Garlic, whether raw and minced or dried and granulated, sticks easier to wet feeds, obviously.
All good then, still probably a bit often though, but it does depend on the wormer so I can't say for sure that it's too often. I'd think a very strong wormer less often is better than weaker ones more often, but that's a very complicated subject. Sometimes we get people on this forum who have been worming so often they kill their chooks, unfortunately, hence the response you got when people thought you were worming once a month.
