color question again.

[PeepsCA]

One more question, with your more recessive colored birds, do you find that they tend to breed their colors on truer, especially when backcrossed to a parent known to carry that hidden trait?

I'm wondering if my Violet or slate female, if bred back to her sire-- would make more of the same color on a larger scale than if not... Would she, if bred to a slate male-- make pretty much all slate colored offspring?

Each keet gets one color gene and one pearling gene from each parent... if one of the birds in the breeding pair isn't carrying and passing on recessive genes you usually won't see many (if any) recessive keets in the hatches (when dominant genes pair up with a recessive gene the dominant genes will determine the keet's coloring and pearling).

So yes, if you breed your Slate back to her father this season she should produce Slate keets for you (and theoretically a few non-pearled keets with his recessive coloring as well), but the majority of her keets will most likely have his dominant pearling and her dominant coloring. Breeding her to one of her Slate male offspring next season (if she produces any this season) should produce more Slates per hatch than pairing her with her father does, but you will still always have the dominant pearling genes showing up in their hatches as well, since both birds carry the dominant pearling gene.

If you pair her with up a male that is carrying the non-pearled gene, then more non-pearled keets will show up in the hatches, but you will most likely still get some keets that have the pearling of her father, since she is carrying that dominant gene. Depending on what color the non-pearled male that you pair her up with is and what hidden genes they are both carrying will determine what will hatch.

Odds are always in favor of the dominant genes tho, since they only need one copy to control the outcome.

 

[kfacres]

Each keet gets one color gene and one pearling gene from each parent... if one of the birds in the breeding pair isn't carrying and passing on recessive genes you usually won't see many (if any) recessive keets in the hatches (when dominant genes pair up with a recessive gene the dominant genes will determine the keet's coloring and pearling).

So yes, if you breed your Slate back to her father this season she should produce Slate keets for you (and theoretically a few non-pearled keets with his recessive coloring as well), but the majority of her keets will most likely have his dominant pearling and her dominant coloring. Breeding her to one of her Slate male offspring next season (if she produces any this season) should produce more Slates per hatch than pairing her with her father does, but you will still always have the dominant pearling genes showing up in their hatches as well, since both birds carry the dominant pearling gene.

If you pair her with up a male that is carrying the non-pearled gene, then more non-pearled keets will show up in the hatches, but you will most likely still get some keets that have the pearling of her father, since she is carrying that dominant gene. Depending on what color the non-pearled male that you pair her up with is and what hidden genes they are both carrying will determine what will hatch.

Odds are always in favor of the dominant genes tho, since they only need one copy to control the outcome.

In all other species of livestock breeding- the dominant gene is not expressed, then the animal does not carry it-- and therefore cannot pass it on.

With that being said, in my eyes, my non-pearled hen, should only put non pearled genetics into her offspring. Meaning, is mated to a non-pearled male-- she should only produce non-pearled offspring.

The same goes for color... so if slate is a recessive color-- then she should not produce anything of a dominat color pattern )unless mated to a dominant color pattern male) if mated back to something recessive... She would be able to produce something recessive, if still hidden

 

[PeepsCA]

Quote:

 

[kfacres]

Interesting, apparently dominant and recessive, really aren't true dominant or recessive.

In your mixed color flocks, how many different colors result?

What's the basis of your breeding program, sounds interesting...

 

[PeepsCA]

Interesting, apparently dominant and recessive, really aren't true dominant or recessive.

How can that be? Doesn't make any sense.
When the genes are paired up on the chromosome (1 from each parent) they are indeed true dominant or recessive.

In your mixed color flocks, how many different colors result?

18 different varieties (plus I hatch most of those varieties as Pieds too) from all of my mixed color breeding flocks combined. I change out a few birds in each flock every year, and on top of that the birds are free to breed whoever they want to within their flocks all season long (and they do), so the varieties hatched from each specific flock varies from season to season.

What's the basis of your breeding program, sounds interesting...

LOL, I don't have a breeding program.
My personal goal is having varied hatches with lots of varieties to sell (or keep).
I do not separate by color/variety because I have too many birds to house in that kind of set up, but if I want to hatch a specific variety then I make sure the correct genes are in a particular breeding flock and that the more dominant genes that will typically control the hatches are removed from the mix. Pretty cut and dried.

 

[kfacres]

Dom vs. Recessive...

Cattle breeding:

Black is dominate over all other colors.
Red is recessive.
Charlois white is a diluted red
Shorthorn white is co-dominate
there is a few other colors that don't play a big role, spots and markings are mostly unknown at this time...

If an animal carries black-- it will be black- or diluted black if also having Char white, or black roan if having Shorthorn white.
If an animal is red- it will never produce black if mated to a red animal.
Red throwback animals from two black parent's-- will never produce black offspring, if mated to red animals.
Homo black animals, will never produce red offspring, no matter what bred to.

shorthorn white works as codominate- that means it takes one copy to yield roan= which is a expression of both red and white (shorthorn white). This works the same with black and shorthorn white which makes a black roan, or blue roan as commonly called.
If you breed a TRUE red- to a TRUE solid shorthorn white-- you will get a roan every time, no other options, same works for black roans.

Char white dilutes everything... breed it to black- get smoke. breed it to red- get orange, or red-- since the base color is really red. breed to char white-- get white.

what does this mean?

if I have a herd of black cattle- and they are all homo black- only homo black offspring will result. if I have one red carrier- 50% of the time she will produce a red calf from a red carrier partner. If she is always bred to homo black bulls- she will never produce any other color but black.

if I have a herd of red cattle-- I will never get a black calf== never.

If I have straight shorthorns, I'm going to get red, white, or roan- nothing else.

straight char- only produce white animals, sometimes white with a touch of red shading.

Another example. horns vs. polled.

Polled is dom. horns is recessive. If I breed two homo polled animals-- I will never get horned calves. If I breed to horned animals, i will never get a polled offspring. if I breed two hetro horned animals- I will get horned offspring 25% of the time.

And here's the real kicker-- if I have a horned animal, from two polled parents- it doesn't matter if he comes from polled lines or not-- he will only put a horned gene into the offspring...

Comparing that mind blowing facts to guinea talk from above...

If Pearl grey is dominate-- a pearl flock should only produce pearl grey offspring- giving they are pure pearled grey. if you have only one non-pure pearled grey-- you should never get anything else either-- unless you keep an offspring from it, and breed back to the parent.- then you may get something else (whatever was hidden in the wood pile.)

We'll use my slate female.. If fully pearled is dominate over partially pearled, and non-pearled is recessive under partially pearled-- using logic-- that hen is as recessive as she can get-- meaning that if mated back to another slate-- both parent's should be non-pearled-- meaning only non-pearled offspring should be born.

Now, colors obviously are more confusing- as you have base colors of grey(pearl, violet, royal purple), brown (choc, buff, etc), lavender (??? whatever slate, lavender are???), and white. Does white work as a mask (dom), or a hidden (rec). Using chicken talk- Cornish white is recessive, but the white in White Laced Red Cornish-- is dominate. Cornish can carry both types in the same bird...

I'm guessing the colors of guineas are dark being the most dom, and light being the least dom- everything else in the middle a crapshoot of co-domiance or something.

Confused yet?

Basically, what I'm trying to ask-- if I take a non-pearled parent, and mate it to a fully pearled-- should that result in 100% partially pearled offspring, taking into account the fully pearled parent is pure for fully pearling, b/c the non pearled should be pure for recessive for both...

Using cattle genes, that should be-- using what you told me above.. nope.

 

[PeepsCA]

...
If Pearl grey is dominate-- a pearl flock should only produce pearl grey offspring- giving they are pure pearled grey. if you have only one non-pure pearled grey-- you should never get anything else either-- unless you keep an offspring from it, and breed back to the parent.- then you may get something else (whatever was hidden in the wood pile.)

As I stated before, I have have first hand experience that Guineas displaying dominant color and pearling genes can and do produce recessive gened keets. It may go against everything you know about dominant and recessive genes, but it's normal for hidden recessive to show up in hatches from dominant gened parents. If it wasn't possible, then how else would your Slate Hen have hatched out of fully-pearled parents?

We'll use my slate female.. If fully pearled is dominate over partially pearled, and non-pearled is recessive under partially pearled-- using logic-- that hen is as recessive as she can get-- meaning that if mated back to another slate-- both parent's should be non-pearled-- meaning only non-pearled offspring should be born.

Yes, her non-pearling gene is recessive. But since she came from a Pearl Grey X Buff Dundotte breeding (I think that's what you said, way back?) she actually carries 2 copies of the fully-pearled gene in her background. Don't mean to sound like a broken record, but since she is carrying the fully pearled gene, she will produce some keets (possibly a lot) that are fully pearled, and pass those fully-pearled genes to all of her offspring (along with all the other genes she is carrying). Genes are carried in each bird, either hidden or displayed/expressed and passed down to every one of their offspring, but that doesn't mean they will always get used/show up in every hatch.

Now, colors obviously are more confusing- as you have base colors of grey(pearl, violet, royal purple), brown (choc, buff, etc), lavender (??? whatever slate, lavender are???), and white. Does white work as a mask (dom), or a hidden (rec). Using chicken talk- Cornish white is recessive, but the white in White Laced Red Cornish-- is dominate. Cornish can carry both types in the same bird...

There aren't dominant or recessive versions of White for Guineas, and White is not an actual base color in Guineas, it does cover up the base color tho. Pure White Guineas come from breeding 2 Pied birds, but only 25% of the keets turn out to be pure White. Pied/White doesn't dilute the colors, it only masks color and pearling. Pure White keets usually will have a dark spot on the back of their head... which is just a remnant of their base color. And even tho their base color is covered up, the bird is still carrying the (dominant) genes for the color and the pearling. Pied is considered an incomplete dominant gene and only needs 1 copy to show up as a certain % of the hatch. But... Whites and Pieds are really a whole new subject, so I'll stop there.

I'm guessing the colors of guineas are dark being the most dom, and light being the least dom- everything else in the middle a crapshoot of co-domiance or something.

The crap shoot mainly comes into play from all the different unknown hidden color and hidden diluted color genes that are being carried. If both birds carry the same assortment of hidden recessive color genes, there's a chance they will pair up and produce lots of different colored keets... then whatever pearling genes are there in the mix will pair up and determine the pearling on each keet, no matter the base color. With genetically pure birds (which typical backyard flocks and swap meet birds are not), there really is no crap shoot, but even then natural mutations sometimes can occur just out of the blue.

Confused yet?

No, not as long as I focus on just Guinea genes, lol.

Basically, what I'm trying to ask-- if I take a non-pearled parent, and mate it to a fully pearled-- should that result in 100% partially pearled offspring, taking into account the fully pearled parent is pure for fully pearling, b/c the non pearled should be pure for recessive for both...

No, if you breed a non-pearled bird with a fully-pearled bird you will not get partially-pearled keets unless one or both parent birds are carrying the partially-pearled gene.
The partially-pearled gene is a separate gene all on it's own, it is not a combination of the fully-pearled and non-pearled genes. And it has to pair up with a 2nd copy of the partially-pearled gene or a copy of the non-pearled gene (that it is dominant over) to show up in the hatches.

Using cattle genes, that should be-- using what you told me above.. nope.

Like I said, they work differently.

I'm not a geneticist, and obviously don't speak the language, lol... if I was then maybe I could explain all of this using genetic terms that would make more sense to you. Maybe someone else can explain it all better.

Hopefully once you start hatching eggs from your Slate Hen and see what hatches, what I've tried to explain will click for you.

 

[kfacres]

I understand what you are saying, have pretty much all along- just trying to continue the discussion to other types of genes. It's most interesting to me how guinea color genes work together to produce what we see.

I do agree, that almost every guinea out there, is a mixture of mutt genetics- no doubt in my mind, and even mine are as well.

Now, back to the basics-- what are the basic colors of guineas? Grey and what else, if I remember right there is 4.

One last off the wall question--- would the breeding of a white, to another other color-- result in mostly pied keets? Are white birds pearled, or are the pearls hidden?

 

[PeepsCA]

I understand what you are saying, have pretty much all along- just trying to continue the discussion to other types of genes. It's most interesting to me how guinea color genes work together to produce what we see.

I do agree, that almost every guinea out there, is a mixture of mutt genetics- no doubt in my mind, and even mine are as well.

Now, back to the basics-- what are the basic colors of guineas? Grey and what else, if I remember right there is 4.

One last off the wall question--- would the breeding of a white, to another other color-- result in mostly pied keets? Are white birds pearled, or are the pearls hidden?

The (proposed) Standard Of Perfection for Guinea Fowl only recognizes the Pearl Grey, Lavender and White varieties. Pathetically outdated. There are somewhere around 30 varieties these days, more if you include varieties in other parts of the world.

Besides grey all other base colors are either dilutions or dark variations of the blue or brown (buff) genes.

A pure White Guinea bred to any other color/variety produces 100% Pied keets. (Whichever color and pearling genes are in the backgrounds of the parent birds will determine the varieties/colors of Pieds that hatch). Pied Pearl Greys are what's commonly sold from hatcheries. I hatch Pied in lots of colors/varieties tho.

Pure White Guineas are a solid White with no markings/no pearling at all, but may hatch with a dark dot on the back of their head (remnants of their base color) that they lose when they lose their baby fuzz on their head. Sometimes they will have a few dark feathers on the back of the neck. A White Guinea can have any base color and any degree of pearling, covered up by the Pied.

Some people have or have hatched extra light Buff Dundottes or Porcelains that appear White colored with full-pearling... but genetically they are not White and their base color gene (either blue or buff) is just extremely diluted.

 

[JLeigh]

Some people have or have hatched extra light Buff Dundottes or Porcelains that appear White colored with full-pearling... but genetically they are not White and their base color gene (either blue or buff) is just extremely diluted.

That would be one of mine. Looks white for all practical purposes, but isn't, which pleases me because I don't want pieds necessarily. Mine is an Extra Light Buff Dundotte male. I think I'll name him Miller Extra Light - MEL for short. I'll bet no one has thought of that before LOL.