Colorado

[samsr]

Greetings all, Sorry I have been largely absent the last few weeks, have had issues at work and issues at home.  Work is just work, I can leave it there (mostly), home is another story - I have chicken issues here, and now that I feel I have my head wrapped around it I want to share what I've experienced and learned.

About 3 weeks ago, I had a pullet and a cockerel become ill.  The pullet died, the cockerel I put down when it was obvious he was going to die.  Both Speckled Sussex.  A week later, another SS pullet became ill, who subsequently died.  I emailed the breeder to ask if he had ever seen the symptoms I was seeing.  He was unsure what had happened with the pullets, but the cockerel he thought had Marek's.  Since then I've lost another pullet and 2 more cockerels plus a RIR cockerel, and have 2 pullets in a brooder in my bathroom who have the occular version of Marek's - they are blind, probably for life, and will have to be put down.  All these birds have died from Marek's I believe. 

I started doing research and asking questions of people with more experience than I and have learned a lot.  The University of New Hampshire published a page on Marek's that says if you have an adult flock of poultry, they have been exposed to Marek's and have survived, so are immune; it is everywhere.  Longtime breeders confirm this, and do not vaccinate for it, for a variety of reasons. 

After all is said and done, I believe I actually created the situation.  I had chicks here from hatcheries earlier in the year, all of whom were vaccinated for Marek's.  The version of vaccine we can buy and use is the Turkey version of Marek's, which works by stimulating the immune system of the chickens - it is a live vaccine, but the vaccinated birds shedding that virus essentially works to do the same in unvaccinated birds, stimulating the immune system without killing them.  The hatcheries use a triple vaccine which includes live chicken Marek's virus.  When they shed that, it can infect and kill unvaccinated chickens.

I have been told multiple times to either get a Turkey, or get some waste and bedding from someone who has Turkeys and spread it in my pens and runs.  I will be doing one or the other.  Meanwhile, I thought it useful information to share.  Marek's is everywhere, and Turkeys or their waste can protect chickens from the chicken versions of Marek's by telling their immune systems to fight this virus.  Birds who are still alive past six months of age are generally thought to be immune, as the virus mainly affects birds 5-25 weeks of age.

I am hopeful but not certain the birds still here are nearly out of the woods.  Soon most of my birds will have passed the 6 month mark.  The chicks the Silkies are raising all seem fine, there are the 2 SLWs from Paul, and 3 Cream Legbars, and one of the hens is on 6 more CL eggs and 2 Silkie eggs.  I am operating under the belief the Silkies are immune and are passing along their immunities to the chicks they are raising.  The eggs in the incubators (yes I still have them running, have 6 more CL eggs, 10 shipped Silkie eggs, 12 shipped BR eggs, and a couple of dozen Egyptian Fayoumi x Speckled Sussex eggs in there) I'll probably give to the Silkies to raise if I can, to provide them with their immunities.  If they are overrun I'll raise the chicks in brooders under the house.  I may buy vaccine for them to ensure they receive proper immunities.  EF x SS should start hatching next week.
.

Sorry to hear about the losses and the headaches. The chicks i got from you in February are doing well and all but one are laying. Well other than the one i lost due to a bobcat last friday. I am in the market for a replacement aracauna if you know of any around.

 

[WendyGeisler]

Greetings all, Sorry I have been largely absent the last few weeks, have had issues at work and issues at home. Work is just work, I can leave it there (mostly), home is another story - I have chicken issues here, and now that I feel I have my head wrapped around it I want to share what I've experienced and learned.

About 3 weeks ago, I had a pullet and a cockerel become ill. The pullet died, the cockerel I put down when it was obvious he was going to die. Both Speckled Sussex. A week later, another SS pullet became ill, who subsequently died. I emailed the breeder to ask if he had ever seen the symptoms I was seeing. He was unsure what had happened with the pullets, but the cockerel he thought had Marek's. Since then I've lost another pullet and 2 more cockerels plus a RIR cockerel, and have 2 pullets in a brooder in my bathroom who have the occular version of Marek's - they are blind, probably for life, and will have to be put down. All these birds have died from Marek's I believe.

I started doing research and asking questions of people with more experience than I and have learned a lot. The University of New Hampshire published a page on Marek's that says if you have an adult flock of poultry, they have been exposed to Marek's and have survived, so are immune; it is everywhere. Longtime breeders confirm this, and do not vaccinate for it, for a variety of reasons.

After all is said and done, I believe I actually created the situation. I had chicks here from hatcheries earlier in the year, all of whom were vaccinated for Marek's. The version of vaccine we can buy and use is the Turkey version of Marek's, which works by stimulating the immune system of the chickens - it is a live vaccine, but the vaccinated birds shedding that virus essentially works to do the same in unvaccinated birds, stimulating the immune system without killing them. The hatcheries use a triple vaccine which includes live chicken Marek's virus. When they shed that, it can infect and kill unvaccinated chickens.

I have been told multiple times to either get a Turkey, or get some waste and bedding from someone who has Turkeys and spread it in my pens and runs. I will be doing one or the other. Meanwhile, I thought it useful information to share. Marek's is everywhere, and Turkeys or their waste can protect chickens from the chicken versions of Marek's by telling their immune systems to fight this virus. Birds who are still alive past six months of age are generally thought to be immune, as the virus mainly affects birds 5-25 weeks of age.

I am hopeful but not certain the birds still here are nearly out of the woods. Soon most of my birds will have passed the 6 month mark. The chicks the Silkies are raising all seem fine, there are the 2 SLWs from Paul, and 3 Cream Legbars, and one of the hens is on 6 more CL eggs and 2 Silkie eggs. I am operating under the belief the Silkies are immune and are passing along their immunities to the chicks they are raising. The eggs in the incubators (yes I still have them running, have 6 more CL eggs, 10 shipped Silkie eggs, 12 shipped BR eggs, and a couple of dozen Egyptian Fayoumi x Speckled Sussex eggs in there) I'll probably give to the Silkies to raise if I can, to provide them with their immunities. If they are overrun I'll raise the chicks in brooders under the house. I may buy vaccine for them to ensure they receive proper immunities. EF x SS should start hatching next week.
.

Oh, Pozees,
I am soo sorry about your loss. I have turkey poop! You are welcome to as much of it as you want!! W

 

[Pozees]

Wendy if I don't find any closer to home I will take you up on that, thank you!

One thing I forgot to mention is that Marek's is apparently spread via dander (feather dust). I spent most of a day with my little shop vac (with filter) in the coop last weekend, and plan to again this weekend, to keep feather dust to a minimum.

I had just gotten a gallon of Oxine when I realized what was going on, and have been spraying it into the air and on all feeders and waterers every day, and adding to their drinking water. Unless "activated" with citric acid it is not a virucide, only kills baceria and fungi, but inhaled by birds can offer protection from infectious agents and assist in healing, as Mayah has told us before. I am ordering a mister to reduce the size of the droplets to make it easier to inhale for the birds. Activating with citric acid means getting all the birds out and wearing a respirator, as it becomes dangerous to inhale, and I don't have, and don't plan to buy, a respirator.

 

[Mtn Margie]

Thanks for the heads up Pozees! I am sorry you went through all of this but it has been interesting, to say the least, to read about it. Hope the rest of your flock continues to improve quickly.

 

[Pozees]

Sorry to hear about the losses and the headaches. The chicks i got from you in February are doing well and all but one are laying. Well other than the one i lost due to a bobcat last friday. I am in the market for a replacement aracauna if you know of any around.

I don't have any, only an extra Egyptian Fayoumi cockerel (vaccinated) and some Speckled Sussex, and given my current issues they are all bound for the freezer flock to be on the safe side (the EF I wouldn't worry about, but the SS until they pass 6 months are susceptible, and they are big birds, extra males are going to the freezer sooner than 6 months of age, hopefully), but doesn't Chook Chicks have an EE? Would that do? If not, I think there's a woman out on the Mesa with Araucanas, I'll see if I can find her contact info, she has nice birds. Her first name is Kathy.

 

[Pozees]

Thanks for the heads up Pozees! I am sorry you went through all of this but it has been interesting, to say the least, to read about it. Hope the rest of your flock continues to improve quickly.

Thanks MM The things that surprised me most were the negative impact of the hatchery vaccinations on unvaccinated birds, and UNH's view/statement that every adult flock in the country is exposed, that the virus is everywhere. I saw that last many, many places, but somehow a University stating and publishing it made it hit home. I literally said out loud, "Everywhere???" I always thought it was some places and not others, residing in the soil like some other diseases, but apparently it can even be brought to your flock by local wild birds.

 

[wsmith]

Thanks MM The things that surprised me most were the negative impact of the hatchery vaccinations on unvaccinated birds, and UNH's view/statement that every adult flock in the country is exposed, that the virus is everywhere. I saw that last many, many places, but somehow a University stating and publishing it made it hit home. I literally said out loud, "Everywhere???" I always thought it was some places and not others, residing in the soil like some other diseases, but apparently it can even be brought to your flock by local wild birds.

Wow.

I'm glad I have always had turkeys with my chickens. I will continue to do so.

I had also heard that Marek's was everywhere. Most of the Dominique breeders I know don't vaccinate at all. Neither do I.

 

[suncatcher]

Quote: Interesting that it is everywhere, and yet, only some birds are sickened by it???? Are there certain stressors that cause it to be more lethal in some flocks? Is there more than one strain of Mereks? Is it more prevalent in certain parts of the country, say in a warmer climate? I wonder if sunlight helps control it out doors. I know nothing of this disease, so many,many questions!!!

Also, have you considered having a necropsy done on one of the chickens? So you know for sure you are dealing with Mereks. Wonder if CSU would be able to do it for you at a discounted price.

Thanks for the info on how hatchery stock can shed it, and pass it along to unvaccinated chicks! Who would have thought of that! This always seems to happen to people who are so careful and diligent with the care of their animals!! I think I am going to rethink my two new breeding pens to include a HUGE outdoor area, I like the idea of all that sunshine.

 

[Pozees]

Wow.

I'm glad I have always had turkeys with my chickens. I will continue to do so.

I had also heard that Marek's was everywhere. Most of the Dominique breeders I know don't vaccinate at all. Neither do I.

Yes, I thought of you and Mayah and Wendy right away In hindsight, I think if I had kept a poult or two I might have saved my Sussex and the one RIR. Between those that died and those that are too knock kneed to use, right now I am probably going to be left with one Sussex cock bird I had originally thought was a cull because he has one sideways point on his comb. He is the only one left with good legs. Fortunately, he is pleasant both in temperament and appearance (other than the comb) and has been with the pullets and the two adult (hatchery) hens for several weeks so I don't have an integration issue coming up. Time will tell whether the comb passes to all his offspring. If so, I guess next year I'll be shopping for a new male.

Most breeders of most breeds said they don't vaccinate, as they wish to raise resistant birds. I shared that with Bob, who initially thought that sounded heartless, but I think he came to realize it was for the long term good of the flock.

You probably saw Lacy Blues say she had gotten turkey manure and bedding and hoped she was right as she spread it in her runs. She seems to have had good results, and I'm on board to try it.

 

[Pozees]

Interesting that it is everywhere, and yet, only some birds are sickened by it???? Are there certain stressors that cause it to be more lethal in some flocks? Is there more than one strain of Mereks? Is it more prevalent in certain parts of the country, say in a warmer climate? I wonder if sunlight helps control it out doors. I know nothing of this disease, so many,many questions!!!

Also, have you considered having a necropsy done on one of the chickens? So you know for sure you are dealing with Mereks. Wonder if CSU would be able to do it for you at a discounted price.

Thanks for the info on how hatchery stock can shed it, and pass it along to unvaccinated chicks! Who would have thought of that! This always seems to happen to people who are so careful and diligent with the care of their animals!! I think I am going to rethink my two new breeding pens to include a HUGE outdoor area, I like the idea of all that sunshine.

Marek's manifests in multiple ways. There is the occular version, which shows up as cloudy eyes and misshapen pupils; the neurological version, evidenced by birds who suddenly can't stand and walk because one leg won't work, and ultimately the legs stiffen straight out; the internal ,called visceral, where the bird develops tumors on internal organs; and there is also one called cutaneous Marek's, where the birds develop tumors on the feather follicles. More than one type can be present, and sometimes a bird starts off having one and then develops another type. The neurological version is considered "classic" Marek's, and it is unmistakeable. The occular version is also very obvious, the birds have trouble finding food and water, and will peck near it before they hit it. When you pick them up to look at them you immediately see the cloudy eyes and elongated pupils The visceral is harder to spot, because they are eating and can see and walk, but one day you pick them up and they are bones and feathers, or they just die.

Some birds have natural immunity/resistance to the virus (sort of like some people will get chicken pox and some won't because they are born with natural immunity), and some are exposed to the turkey version, which is mild to the extent you don't even know they are exposed and their immune systems are working to fight something. The accepted theory is that infection with the turkey virus "teaches" the immune system that this virus is something to fight and kicks it into gear without making them sick in an obvious way, so that when they are exposed to the chicken virus their immune systems are already in full fight mode.

The reason the vaccine is a problem is that it is a live virus vaccine, and once the birds are vaccinated they shed the virus the rest of their lives in their feather dander. When I put unvaccinated chicks in the same vicinity as vaccinated chicks, I exposed them, and those that were susceptible became ill and died. From everything I've read, once the birds are older than 6 months they usually won't get sick or die from it, their immune systems have matured enough to fight it off.

It is possible fresh air and sunshine reduces risk, it's certainly good for the overall health of the birds, but if it can be spread by dander of wild birds, I don't see any way to completely avoid it. Even if you kept your birds in a bubble, you could walk on the dander, brush against a tree where dander has landed, pick it up at the feed store, WalMart, etc. - when they say it's everywhere, that is a very literal statement. It is not more common in one area than another, so it is unlike Fowl Pox, which likes warm and moist climates. Even coccidiosis is more prevalent in warm and moist areas - those in the Southeast and in coastal areas almost all use medicated chick starter because it is so common, where I have not used medicated feed at all this year and have not (knock wood) had any problems with coccidiosis. Marek's is a whole 'nother ball game.