Copper Deficiency: Fishtail?

[lomine]

@Iomine, you live in copper mine country. That's a very, very unique thing.

Copper deficiency kills a LOT of goats. Did you know that low copper levels in the mother through pregnancy will kill the goat kids? Not right away, they die long, agonizing deaths at a few months old. The mother will die during the next pregnancy when the next kid robs her body (again) of every last bit of copper, unless she's been treated. It's called "In utero copper deficiency", look it up.

When we talk about dangers to goats, yes, we talk about the most common ones. We don't give advice based on rare or unique circumstances. And location matters. Like, on this forum, even though we have members based all over the world, MOST of us are in the US, so if you ask about predators, the advice given to you will be based on canids. even though a major predator of domestic goats is Lions in over 20 countries. But things like lions and unusually high copper levels in the soil tend to be dangers that people in those areas are very aware of. For example, I'm sure that most of the copper related deaths that a vet in Peyton, CO would have seen would be sheep related, and it would be known to not raise sheep around there, as sheep are killed at 1/4 of the amount of copper that a goat needs just to be healthy, and if even one goat has died because copper levels in the soil are high enough that a bolus tips them over the edge, sheep in that area must drop like flies.

That is exactly why I advised OP to talk to a local expert/experienced person. It's very unlikely anyone on this forum knows what their area is like so we can't give localized advice. Taking a week or so to ask a local isn't going to kill a goat unless it's showing more extreme symptoms. Before I asked my vet I didn't know about the dangers because when I looked online about info not a single forum post or article talked about toxicity. It's a really good thing I asked my vet first.

 

[cassie]

That is exactly why I advised OP to talk to a local expert/experienced person. It's very unlikely anyone on this forum knows what their area is like so we can't give localized advice. Taking a week or so to ask a local isn't going to kill a goat unless it's showing more extreme symptoms. Before I asked my vet I didn't know about the dangers because when I looked online about info not a single forum post or article talked about toxicity. It's a really good thing I asked my vet first.

I learned about copper toxicity from too much copper at a seminar given by the organization of small ruminant practitioners. They said that once a goat is given too much copper the effects are irreversible and fatal. The local farm advisor's office and any of the local large animal vets ought to be able to tell you if the copper levels in your area are such that you need to supplement. I am not sure how to diagnose mineral deficiencies in a living animal, but at the seminar they suggested taking tissue samples from any animals that die, freeze them, and send them in for analyses. I know you take samples from the heart, kidneys, and liver. I don't remember what all else.

 

[Regina Larsen]

Hey again!
So, my goats have Manna Pro Goat Mineral available in two locations in their enclosure 24/7….. Is this tail exhibiting fishtail?

His coat is a bit rougher than my other goats’, which he has had ever since I got him. Also, whenever I pet him my hand has hairs on it. Finally, he and my other goats had some lice (which I treated) but they are clear now.

Btw, I recently dewormed all my goats with Moxidectin. Should I give some copper to boost their deworming?

Could this be copper deficiency (my gut feeling) or lice recovery?

I really don’t want to Overdose my goats on copper! But I think it will not only help with the deworming, but help my goat’s coat.

My goats' black is 'deep black' and i use that as indicator of good copper. I have always seen fishtail as a selenium indicator. We switched hay source a while back and saw some fishtail; we are adding the selenium/vit e powder weekly a d they have free choice mineral (purina, more selenium than other brands) and its made a difference.

 

[RiverOtter]

I learned about copper toxicity from too much copper at a seminar given by the organization of small ruminant practitioners. They said that once a goat is given too much copper the effects are irreversible and fatal. T

This is incorrect. It is not only treatable, but it has been known to be treatable for decades, so it's not new research that that older vets might not know about. I learned about it in school in the early 90s. I mean, unless you have a really severe case and miss symptoms before "death", you do have a chance to treat and save them

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxi...n of ammonium,reduce the absorption of copper.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...gy-and-pharmaceutical-science/copper-toxicity

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17696861/

 

[cassie]

This is incorrect. It is not only treatable, but it has been known to be treatable for decades, so it's not new research that that older vets might not know about. I learned about it in school in the early 90s. I mean, unless you have a really severe case and miss symptoms before "death", you do have a chance to treat and save them

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicology/copper-poisoning/copper-poisoning-in-animals#:~:text=Daily oral administration of ammonium,reduce the absorption of copper.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...gy-and-pharmaceutical-science/copper-toxicity

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17696861/

The seminar I attended was given at the American Dairy Goat Association Convention. The speaker was referencing serious copper overdoses given by well-meaning goat owners. The talk would have been given after 2000. The various speakers were associated with veterinary teaching hospitals like UC Davis in California, WSU in Washington, and others. There were a number of topics covered but that is the only one I remembered after all these years. Neither insufficient nor excessive copper was anything I ever had to deal with in my animals, so I am not speaking from personal experience.

 

[Aunt Angus]

You can see the mineral levels of soils in your area online. I think this is the site: https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/sir20175118

My area is slightly deficient in both copper and selenium, so I supplement both. I bolus my goats every 3-4 months. I started doing so when they were kids using the copper bolus for kids, which has a much smaller dose. I find it's easy to avoid overdoing the copper if you know their weights. Of course, that's easy for someone like me who only has 4!

As far as selenium, I find they get enough between their minerals and Goat Balancer, though I do have the paste on hand if needed.

I've read that Copper deficiency can cause anemia, which can make them susceptible to parasites, particularly the barberpole worm. If severe or chronic, it can cause ataxia, osteoporosis, and musculoskeletal (swayback, in particular) and neurological problems. It can slow development in kids, too. Copper also aids in the absorption of other minerals, so I find it's good to keep their blood levels consistent. A vet should be able to check their copper levels by doing bloodwork in certain circumstances.

If you are careful and know your area, I find it's pretty simple to keep on top of copper. I hope it is, anyway......

ETA: If your herd is on well water, it might be worth testing that for copper levels, too.

 

[Aunt Angus]

Welcome to BYC!

It's been a while since I kept goaties.. but I do remember a couple very good website resources (regardless of breed) in case they're helpful for you also..

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/

https://tennesseemeatgoats.com/

Hopefully you will get some more feedback from experienced and current goat keepers right here.. but there is a sister site to this one for herd animals that may also be helpful/useful..

https://www.backyardherds.com/

In poultry (seasonal shedding).. I know the feather condition doesn't change until it falls out and new ones come in, even if the condition (parasitic or nutritional) was corrected. Now skin condition, if it was effected (by parasites) does improve rapidly. And human hair (constant shedding/growth).. well it's also dead and basically won't improve the old stuff but only the new growth. My dogs, some are more smooth coated and others are more course, genetically speaking (even same breed), just for discussion and consideration purposes.

Just as a means of looking at clues, aside from the minerals you have available.. what is his standard feed routine including treats, what is his breed, and is he wethered or in tact? I'm not sure if the last question is fully relevant, but seems like it could be.

One interesting article about the shedding process..

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ing-in-goats/49915A9847CDD39DFD998FA885167475

I highly, highly recommend The Goat Spot. It's the BYC of the goat world - tons of activity! It's a great place to get help and info from goat folks all over the world.

 

[chicbaby]

i have had great results with the copper bolus, it saved some of our older goats who were getting weak and nothing else worked. i do not think it dangerous to try one. i just stuck them in a banana piece and they loved it. goats require copper to fight off parasites also.
yes fiasco is the best source of info. her herbal wormers are fantastic

 

[HensAndFriends]

Thank you for everyone’s input!!

Had fecals done on all my goats and found light to moderate cocci (no barber pole worms thankfully) I treated them accordingly.

I found my copper and selenium levels for my area:

Soil Selenium Value: 0.2-0.5ppm (my goata are given 5mg of selenium paste once a month, as recommended by the breeder)

Soil Copper Value: 4.0-16.0ppm

Also, a side note, the breeder has never given a bolus to their goats.

Got the Purina Goat Mineral and all the goats love it! They eat it more regularly than before.

 

[Aunt Angus]

Thank you for everyone’s input!!

Had fecals done on all my goats and found light to moderate cocci (no barber pole worms thankfully) I treated them accordingly.

I found my copper and selenium levels for my area:

Soil Selenium Value: 0.2-0.5ppm (my goata are given 5mg of selenium paste once a month, as recommended by the breeder)

Soil Copper Value: 4.0-16.0ppm

Also, a side note, the breeder has never given a bolus to their goats.

Got the Purina Goat Mineral and all the goats love it! They eat it more regularly than before.

Sounds like you have it all dialed in! Nice! As long as your goats have good FAMACHA scores, healthy poop, and good body condition/energy levels, you're good!