Cornish X Leg Problem?

[acorniv]

Quote:
Regarding my being a newbie, I've been here since March, but haven't had much reason to post because I'm not a chicken farmer. I came here looking help with bumblefoot, which I got, and I tried to return the favor by helping someone else today. That is how I behave on lists - I always try to give at least as much as I receive.

I have no interest in stirring up trouble - if you go back and read, my comments were provoked by members who took pot shots at people who wrote asking for help. Are pot shots like that acceptable behavior here? Because I don't see anyone else having their hand smacked.

You mention making friends here - well, it's a good thing that was not my reason for coming to this list, because friendly is not how I would describe the atmosphere here. Not just towards me, but in general. Perhaps you've all just had some sort of upset, and I walked into a bad mood, but it was a bit of a shock to log on and see people being attacked for asking for help. I'm used to a more cooperative atmosphere.

Laurel

 

[CC Lefty]

Quote:
Regarding my being a newbie, I've been here since March, but haven't had much reason to post because I'm not a chicken farmer. I came here looking help with bumblefoot, which I got, and I tried to return the favor by helping someone else today. That is how I behave on lists - I always try to give at least as much as I receive.

I have no interest in stirring up trouble - if you go back and read, my comments were provoked by members who took pot shots at people who wrote asking for help. Are pot shots like that acceptable behavior here? Because I don't see anyone else having their hand smacked.

You mention making friends here - well, it's a good thing that was not my reason for coming to this list, because friendly is not how I would describe the atmosphere here. Not just towards me, but in general. Perhaps you've all just had some sort of upset, and I walked into a bad mood, but it was a bit of a shock to log on and see people being attacked for asking for help. I'm used to a more cooperative atmosphere.

Laurel

Laurel,

I'm a newbie here too. Similar to you, I'm not here to make friends, but to share information about chicken husbandry with those who have been at it for much longer than I have. And as I see it, if it at all matters, this is the first post out of hundreds that I have read that has gotten even remotely hostile; and it began with your "lecture series". As many have posted before, keeping a genetically engineered animal with inherent health risks alive and suffering to satisfy human emotions, regardless of how noble the intentions, is cruel. Any vet truely interested in animal welfare as opposed to $$ would agree and end the suffering as quickly as possible.

Also, your attempt at logic in equating the treatment of animals to children is a logical fallacy that would have Socrates rolling over in his grave. I would expect someone as educated as you seem to know better than that.

Finally, to suensmitty, sorry to hijack your post and to hear about your troubles. I wish you the best with the care of your animals. Your animals are your business, regardless of my or anyone else's opinions. I just get a bit frustrated with soapbox speeches disguised as advice based on a false sense of morality and subjective science.

 

[acorniv]

Quote:
Baloney........... I think you are watching too much History channel.


This isn't exactly controversial or out there stuff here - it's a well documented fact that can be researched through whatever vehicle you prefer.

We eat far more, and especially far more meat, than at any other point in history. When you read of exceptions, it was the very wealthy, not the masses who ate this way, and they paid for it too, with gout ( Henry the Eighth, for example). You may read that Britain went through about 500 years when they ate no vegetables and fruits ( and actually thought they were bad for children). Even then, the masses weren't eating that much meat - mostly they poured suet or milk over starches, if they could get it.

Our parents and grandparents did not grow up eating meat the way we do today - in fact WE didn't grow up eating meat the way we do today. You may remember having meat with every meal, but that's selective memory except in meat farm families. There were casseroles, cheese based dishes and smaller portions.

Regarding the early origins of our diet, I grew up on archeological digs (my dad and brother are both archeologists), so I'm not ignorant on the subject, or about how these things are studied. Scientists study teeth and the type of wear they got, and that whenever tissue is preserved ( as it was with IceMan, the stomach contents can be studied too. We have the teeth of an omnivore, but there are times in history when teeth were worn down too much to have been useful for meat eating. You don't find much in the way of bones at such sites - not bone tools, not bone in the waste heaps ( which tend to be well preserved). You find artifacts that relate to vegetation. It's consistent.

This website is pretty cool if you have any interest in what has been learned about the origins of our diet:

http://www.ivu.org/history/early/ancestors.html

As for the comment another poster made about early stone tools; first of all, stone tools weren't around until the stone age ;-). Once they came into use, hey weren't just for hunting, anymore than tools are today. They were used for defense and for war, as well as for building, for harvesting roots, etc. They were used to make other tools and to make vessels, cut down reeds for building, and to strip cane for weaving. My father had a particular interest in tools and often experimented to see what could be done with them. Also, my son's Eagle project involved making artifacts for a museum, using indigenous methods, so I've seen a wide variety of stone age tools being used, none of them for hunting.

(quote) I don't know about your recent history but Man has been eating chickens for as long as we have been walking upright ..... and well my ancestors always walked upright
you can believe what ever you want about yours. (quote)

This explains a lot.


(quote) I am not saying that I approve of big agriculture stocking giant houses with chicks that live 8 weeks and then are butchered but I don't agree with foriegn fishing fleets taking all the fish from the oceans(quote)

So, would domestic fishing fleets depleting oceans be okay? Or are you saying none of it is optimal? Either way, the fact that something is bad doesn't excuse that another is too.

Look, I don't have a problem with farming. I don't even have a problem with big agriculture the way you describe it, but the way you describe it is not how it is done. 18" chickens are kept in a 12" area. That is STANDARD practice, even in 'free range' situations, where they are kept in the same way on the open floor instead of stacked in cages. This means at least third of the chicks are standing on top of someone else at any given time, and that makes them peck and kick at each other, and also, obviously they end up covered in each other's feces. I object to the practice of beating them to stun them, and then picking them up by whatever body part gets grabbed first and stuff them in cages willy nilly - breaking wings and legs while they are still alive. You can see this when you see the trucks on the freeway - some chickens ride the whole way with their wings broken and wedged in backwards. I object to their being put in a vat of electrified water to stun, but rarely kill, them once they are in the processing plant and and then they are plucked alive. ALL of which are STANDARD. ALL of which is very easy to research online, plus i have seen it with my own eyes. And, I object to the filth, and the rampant staph infections, which BTW is what brought me to this list.

Talk to your vet and ask if they put in two weeks in such a plant as part of their training - my vet did. Ask what they saw.

I do not object to responsible and humane farming.


(quote) I would say that feeding out chickens to feed our population is a much more responsible way to feed our population and feed it we must. If you are advocating veganism (is that what you call it) for the members of this site I think you are at the wrong place (end quote)

You never read any of my posts, did you? If you did, you wouldn't have drawn this conclusion. I have friends who are vegan and I respect them for the sacrifices they make, but I'm not one. I am an omnivore.

Laurel

 

[Chicksdigit]

Quote:
Baloney........... I think you are watching too much History channel.


This isn't exactly controversial or out there stuff here - it's a well documented fact that can be researched through whatever vehicle you prefer.

We eat far more, and especially far more meat, than at any other point in history. When you read of exceptions, it was the very wealthy, not the masses who ate this way, and they paid for it too, with gout ( Henry the Eighth, for example). You may read that Britain went through about 500 years when they ate no vegetables and fruits ( and actually thought they were bad for children). Even then, the masses weren't eating that much meat - mostly they poured suet or milk over starches, if they could get it.

Our parents and grandparents did not grow up eating meat the way we do today - in fact WE didn't grow up eating meat the way we do today. You may remember having meat with every meal, but that's selective memory except in meat farm families. There were casseroles, cheese based dishes and smaller portions.

Regarding the early origins of our diet, I grew up on archeological digs (my dad and brother are both archeologists), so I'm not ignorant on the subject, or about how these things are studied. Scientists study teeth and the type of wear they got, and that whenever tissue is preserved ( as it was with IceMan, the stomach contents can be studied too. We have the teeth of an omnivore, but there are times in history when teeth were worn down too much to have been useful for meat eating. You don't find much in the way of bones at such sites - not bone tools, not bone in the waste heaps ( which tend to be well preserved). You find artifacts that relate to vegetation. It's consistent.

This website is pretty cool if you have any interest in what has been learned about the origins of our diet:

http://www.ivu.org/history/early/ancestors.html

As for the comment another poster made about early stone tools; first of all, stone tools weren't around until the stone age ;-). Once they came into use, hey weren't just for hunting, anymore than tools are today. They were used for defense and for war, as well as for building, for harvesting roots, etc. They were used to make other tools and to make vessels, cut down reeds for building, and to strip cane for weaving. My father had a particular interest in tools and often experimented to see what could be done with them. Also, my son's Eagle project involved making artifacts for a museum, using indigenous methods, so I've seen a wide variety of stone age tools being used, none of them for hunting.

(quote) I don't know about your recent history but Man has been eating chickens for as long as we have been walking upright ..... and well my ancestors always walked upright
you can believe what ever you want about yours. (quote)

This explains a lot.


(quote) I am not saying that I approve of big agriculture stocking giant houses with chicks that live 8 weeks and then are butchered but I don't agree with foriegn fishing fleets taking all the fish from the oceans(quote)

So, would domestic fishing fleets depleting oceans be okay? Or are you saying none of it is optimal? Either way, the fact that something is bad doesn't excuse that another is too.

Look, I don't have a problem with farming. I don't even have a problem with big agriculture the way you describe it, but the way you describe it is not how it is done. 18" chickens are kept in a 12" area. That is STANDARD practice, even in 'free range' situations, where they are kept in the same way on the open floor instead of stacked in cages. This means at least third of the chicks are standing on top of someone else at any given time, and that makes them peck and kick at each other, and also, obviously they end up covered in each other's feces. I object to the practice of beating them to stun them, and then picking them up by whatever body part gets grabbed first and stuff them in cages willy nilly - breaking wings and legs while they are still alive. You can see this when you see the trucks on the freeway - some chickens ride the whole way with their wings broken and wedged in backwards. I object to their being put in a vat of electrified water to stun, but rarely kill, them once they are in the processing plant and and then they are plucked alive. ALL of which are STANDARD. ALL of which is very easy to research online, plus i have seen it with my own eyes. And, I object to the filth, and the rampant staph infections, which BTW is what brought me to this list.

Talk to your vet and ask if they put in two weeks in such a plant as part of their training - my vet did. Ask what they saw.

I do not object to responsible and humane farming.


(quote) I would say that feeding out chickens to feed our population is a much more responsible way to feed our population and feed it we must. If you are advocating veganism (is that what you call it) for the members of this site I think you are at the wrong place (end quote)

You never read any of my posts, did you? If you did, you wouldn't have drawn this conclusion. I have friends who are vegan and I respect them for the sacrifices they make, but I'm not one. I am an omnivore.

Laurel

Sigh, no I believe we (domestic) are trying to manage our fleets and the fish we take.

Laurel Good Luck in all of your endeavors. being an omnivore ....Chicken Rescuer ..... Chicken House reform

Sorry Suensmitty I did not intend to hijack your thread or use it to create a soapbox for someone to preach from. Good Luck with your Cornish Rock I hope he is healthy and keeps getting back up for a long time.

 

[suensmitty]

I certainly didn't intend to open a can of worms. I respect other people's opinions about their chickens and I just want people to repsect mine. I understand that these chicks were bred to be food but they are my pets. My rooster has not lost his footing since I restricted their diet. He is walking just fine now. My chicks are not suffering. They are happy and healthy and I'm doing my best to keep them that way. Any POSITIVE advice is welcome and appreciated.

 

[journey11]

acorniv, I really can't see what you hope to accomplish here.

This forum is about a sense of community and the common thread is the enjoyment of chickens. We are a very diverse community of people, and the rules clearly state you are to be courteous and respectful of the diverse opinions you will see stated here.

Some of us enjoy our chickens for the eggs. Some for the beauty they bring to our backyards. Some for the humor and delight their curious antics bring to our lives. Some for a tasty and nutritious dinner they provide. Some for the pride of a fine show bird. And some for the achievement of a well bred lineage. Or any combination of these things or others.

It is also wonderful to know that any hour of the day or night, we can come here for information, advice or even sympathy when our birds are in trouble. No one has attacked the OP. Each person here, respective of their own experience, has given what they thought was advice in the best interest of the chicken in question.

You may not agree with any or all of the other posters, but that does not give you the right to criticize and attack people who are not of your particular persuasion. That is not what this forum is for. You have single-handedly managed to offend MANY people with one simple thread. You have touched on so many controversial topics--just about everything BUT politics. Again, against the rules. You've run us down endless irrelevant rabbit trails. You've pontificated many unsubstantiated THEORIES and GENERALIZATIONS that you cannot be present to validate in full. You came in here guns blazing. What did you expect?

This forum is to offer ideas. The OP is free to consider and implement any or none of them as he/she sees fit. It is not your job to come in here and ridicule the advice given.

I personally will count myself most fortunate if I never encounter you again.

 

[journey11]

Quote:
I am glad to hear he is doing well. Regardless of what he may have been bred for, he is now your pet and you love him. You have his best interest at heart, and I know you will do what you can to help him, or else you wouldn't have come here. There have been many cases on here where going the extra mile brought about a happy ending. Best wishes!

 

[fourfeathers]

Quote:
Suensmitty,
I am glad that you are taking a proactive approach and that your cornish is showing improvement. As long as he can live a good life and has some mobility to "do chicken things" I believe that is a wonderful chance you are giving him.
I speak from experience in that I have had an EE with severe mobility issues (1 leg) who lasted a year before declining in health and quality of life, and having a Cornish with challenges....in addition to just being a Cornish.
I got my Sunny when she was a week old and knew, because of her breed and her physical disability, that her time on this earth wouldn't be long. But, I decided to give her a chance and see that she had a good quality of life for as long as she could. I consulted with my vet during her life about her diet and her deformity (she had a malformed leg) and also her condition as she got older. She had signs of congestive heart failure about a month before she passed at 5 1/2 months of age. She could not breath well during the heat of the summer and the only thing that would relieve her was to bring her indoors in the a/c, and have a fan blowing on her. Her leg got worse from her circulatory problems and she became shorter of breath during the last two weeks before I made the hard decision to euthanize her. If she had not had such a severe leg problem, I think she would have definitely responded to the treatment/diet that you have yours on. I would get a cornish again in the future and, although I know they will not usually live long lives, will try to make it a quality one. Please keep me updated via PM as to how your Cornish is doing. Best of luck.

 

[suensmitty]

fourfeathers, thank you for your post. I'm sorry that you lost your Sunny. I know that my babies won't live as long as other chickens do but I just want to give them the best life that I can. They are just sweethearts and they make me and my husband laugh every day. They have such personalities!!

 

[Warfrost]

Quote:
Animals ARE property...and YES, people very frequently push "human" emotions on them(you misunderstood what I meant). I am not speaking about the human emotion of affection(we know animals have affection and sadness)...I am speaking of people continuing an animal's suffering because they think that it sits there in agony and thinks " I am in agony. This human is making me a fluffy bed, so tomorrow I may feel more comfortable". This is unrealistic. Animals don't think that way. They have no concept of time...therefore, when they suffer, that is what they know- misery.

As far as your "APA" information...what does that have to do with a chicken post? Everyone knows that throughout time there have been many people who devalue human life...it still is happening today- but we're not speaking of human beings here. We are talking about a chicken. A chicken that has had it's genetics manipulated by the meat industry to grow at such an extreme rate it's bones cannot grow in strength to match its own mass. The bottom line is that a human is a human and a chicken is NOT. So going to extremes to "save" this chicken is at best a very long shot, and will most likely only result in the chicken suffering for far longer than it has to. It isn't pessimism, it's mercy.

You can call me what you want...you are the one making assumptions without any information. You want to express concern for a creature? That's fine. I love animals too. I have pets and I have kids...but I know that my pet is NOT a child, and when push comes to shove, that animal will behave as it was meant to behave- like an animal. Just like the squirrel that bit your daughter. Just like the "dog down the street that never acted aggressively before" that killed a child.

Let's not make this ugly, because that's not what this post was for. We have different perspectives, but that does not mean that I do not respect a different view. Ultimately, I think she should what she feels is best for her chicken...but a good pet owner should know where to draw the line. Getting input from BOTH sides of the coin is the best way to help form a responsible course of action, because int he end, she has to live with it.