Counting down to 2016

[Ridgerunner]

Dunkopf, I'm glad to see your post. I haven't seen you posts for a while.

Did you mean the UAE (not Saudi) based business for the port management contract (not a sale) that was previously run by another foreign based company in 2006? Just wondering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy

It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out. Denmark and the Netherlands have very high standards of living and they have practically no natural resources. They are prosperous because they are traders on an international scale. They are proof you do not have to have heavy manufacturing to have a society with a high standard of living. The downturn of the global economy hurts them like it does many others, they have pretty small populations compared to the US (maybe around 4,000,000 each?), and their education system is set up to help maintain their position as leaders in world trade, such as requiring their kids to speak two different foreign languages before they graduate and they actually educate their kids. I don't see Denmark or the Netherlands as models for us since they are so different, but they are proof that other things can work. But you have to prepare for them.

I don't feel that India is any scarier, but they are proof that you can't depend on the media for your news and think you really have a perspective. Their economy is not currently on the same scale as China, but they are a huge player and are quickly getting bigger. They are in a volatile region of the world and have border disputes with China. They are currently ignored by the media. Currently they are our political friends and share many of the same global outlooks we do. In foreign policy things can change on a dime, and I usually get things wrong, but one scenario that does concern me is that India and Chine, being so close together, become stronger rivals and we get involved in another "cold war" with the US being in more of a Great Britain to the US role with India. Or maybe China.

I think Great Britain is a good model. They used to be the strongest country in the world but were knocked off that position. Yet they are still an important player in the world and are doing pretty well as far as standard of living and such. It is not all gloom and doom for us, but it will not be easy or without risk.

 

[Dunkopf]

I believe it was the UAE vs SA. I know there was a big deal about it at the time as regards security after 911. I'm sure I only heard half the story too as usual. Yes it was for port management and security. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

 

[PineappleMama]

Quote:
I'll second this. Granted they didn't give up their empire graciously, by any means, but eventually they accepted it and set about providing a safe and healthful home for their citizens. Of all the health care plans I've heard of, and the mandatory retirement plans I've heard of, I think I like the way the UK handles theirs best. People still totally have the option of private insurance, private hospitals, etc but no one is left out simply because they can't afford it... think it's the best of both (right and left though that isn't exactly how things are run there) worlds. Still trying to figure out what the point of keeping the royals around, when they're only figureheads and very costly ones at that, is but definitely see some good things done over there.

 

[SourRoses]

Wow! That article on China and India is interesting, thanks! I think that either their societies will wither and suffer until they get those problems under control.. or china at least might form a young-unmarried-male army and send them off to wreak havoc somewhere.

But, the idea of abolishing minimum wage is silly. No one can get by on $4.00 an hour.. have you tried? If you don't have kids but have a job, no matter the income, you couldn't get food stamps or other substitutes to make up for the wage.. so how would those people eat, clothe, transport, and house themselves? It would be impossible unless they huddled 20 up into a 2 bedroom house with one car for all, or packed into homeless shelters. Nevermind the negative tax impact that would have on those with larger incomes.

In my mind.. I think the best way to go for us at the moment is to work on self-sustinance.. with our own small farms and such.

 

[SourRoses]

Oh and Pinapple...
That same question was covered in an article I was reading not long ago...
As much as it seems the royal family is a financial burden and all.. they actually make much more for the country than they expend. Tourism from other countries to the royal palace, royal functions, ect... are a huge revenue source.
Plus, it is part of their heritage... even if they were a burden on the people, the majority would probably want to keep them around.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Quote:
Or use them as a labor force working overseas. That young-unmarried-male army does not have to be to wreak havoc somewhere. They can actually be a great cheap labor resource for the Chinese government. Imprison them or draft them, and you have a tremendous labor force that you have to support but will work for practically no wages.

A few years ago, the Chinese government reportedly had 4,000,000 Chinese laborers working in Angola to rebuild the Angolan infrastructure after their civil war was finally over. I figured the laborers were more likely prisoners or soldiers than true hired laborers, but who knows. What were the Chinese getting in return? Angolan oil. The Angolans produce a lot of oil offshore in Cabinda state. I'd guess there are a lot of other places they are sending labor in exchange for raw materials.

Think of the social implications. All these Chinese males in foreign countries, whether prisoners, soldiers, or true laborers, are going to be exposed to foreign people. Among those are young foreign women. There are no available women back home. Besides, how many Vietnamese brides did American bring back in the 60's and 70’s? How many German brides during the cold war? You don't need a shortage at home for brides to arrive. The way I understand it, the Chinese society is very opposed to mixed marriages. Will attitudes about foreigners change? Most likely there will be some backlash similar to the American backlash against Irish, Italian, Eastern European, Far Easterners, and currently Spanish-speaking people when we had a wave of immigration from them, but we always got over it in the past. It wasn't always pretty, but we managed. I suspect some of it won't be pretty but the Chinese will manage, especially when people realize that is the only way they are going to have grandchildren.

Then think about how little value women have traditionally had in Chinese society. How valuable may women become if there is a huge scarcity? How will that change their place and value in society?

Of course, just think of the effects on the closed, managed Chinese society if a lot of its citizens are exposed to foreign people and ideas? The implications are endless.

Then, when the Chinese are building the infrastructure to Angola, as an example, they are providing Chinese-made equipment made to Chinese specifications. This is not only creating jobs to build the construction equipment like trucks, heavy equipment and welding machines; it is providing permanently installed equipment like pumps, compressors, and many others. One implication to this is that they are providing a future market for Chinese exports when that equipment needs spare parts or replacement. It is not just that the specs are written in Chinese, but there are differences in design philosophy. It is not just things like the difference in allowable strength design method (American) versus load and resistance factor design method (European), which determine whether you put your safety factors on how much stress the steel can take versus how heavy you expect those loads to be.

It is even more basic than that. When Americans or Western Europeans design a boiler, we add enough control devices like pressure safety highs and level safety lows and expect them to be installed properly and properly maintained so the boiler will not blow up. In the Soviet method still used in a lot of the former Soviet Union, the philosophy is that the boiler is going to blow up so build blast walls and find a way to contain the explosion. I’m serious. I’ve worked there. But this puts American or Eastern Europeans at a disadvantage becomes we are going to still put the safety devices because the basic equipment is built to our standards, but still have to build blast walls. Our bids are not as competitive as people that don’t include level safety lows.

Or maybe this example will help. We are losing another war, this time to Europeans. The Europeans are waging a campaign in the developing countries for them to base their national design standards on European standards, not American. For example, a few years back Nigeria switched their heliport design and operating standards from the American API to the standard the Europeans use, I forget the name. Anyway, the implications are that the helicopters built by the Europeans suit this design and operating standard better than the ones the Americans build. Advantage, European helicopter manufacturers, pilots, and service companies. It is a subtle difference, but as long as most Americans don’t understand there is a world out there that could be a market and think we only have to protect our borders and the rest of the world does not matter, we’ll keep losing these battles and eventually the war. You can probably tell I am not an isolationist. The point of all this is that the Chinese are also active in this campaign, and we are losing. The Chinese especially are known to take the long view. Their future goes beyond what the stock market is doing this week, quarterly earnings reports, and even beyond the next congressional election.

I’ll get off my soap box for a while. Thanks to any that made it all the way through this.

 

[PineappleMama]

Yeah I think there's no doubt that we're in a world economy. We can't act as though we aren't. And because we're in that everything we do effects everyone else. But the folks at the top of the heap have more of an impact than those at the bottom of the heap. The US, China, India, Soviet, EU and so on are going to have more of a global impact than say, San Marino. Sure, Italians would notice if there was a civil war there... but folks in Venezuela not so much.

Whether the choices made by the big boys have a positive or negative impact, that's the question. I can tell you that I believe that us spreading the 'western diet' all over the place doesn't seem to have done a lot of good. Our diet hasn't done US any good, look at the obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc problems... so spreading that to impact others, not good. Not that we put a lot of effort into spreading it, well maybe McD's did, but I personally don't care if folks in China eat meat loaf and mashed potatoes or not. But because the western ideal is spreading, is looked up to, craved (to the point of life threatening immigration routes!)... it just sorta took on a life of its own. That's one example off the top of my head that a head honcho had a negative impact, and not even on purpose. But then you look at one that's positive... schools, hospitals and such popping up all over. Not that the far reaches are at our level, but it's a heck of a lot more than it was before. NOT that that's all due to just one country either, but many. But fact is that it was a positive thing that the head honchos got rolling, just the idea, with funds, with volunteers... a lot of different ways really. Overall an increase in 'quality of life'. Just my, admittedly rather ignorant of the details, opinion.

I think it'll be interesting to watch. Historic even. I think it'd be so cool to be able to tell my great grandkids about the time when the U.S. got knocked off her high horse and the people came together to raise a phoenix from the ashes. Wouldn't you be proud to be a part of that? The citizens that got our country out of debt? Got our schools fixed and kicking (international) tail? Yeah, okay so maybe I'm taking the whole silver lining thing too far... but I figure if you've got a noggin' that thinks in tangents you might as well take advantage of it.

 

[Dunkopf]

You make a good point RR. Once they get rid of the minimum wage they can start sending uneducated Americans to use as slaves in places like China. What a hoot that would be huh?

Makes you wonder what our corporate masters intend to use their puppets in Congress for.