Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[dretd]

To reiterate what I'm trying to get across:
1. we think that all the birds known to us have feather shafting, and that includes top birds in the UK
2. appearance is important - but we are all spending way too much time/energy on color IMO and not enough on type - Are they ornamental birds or production birds that look striking - where is this going 5-years or 10-years from now?
3. Most people that have weighed in on this appearance issue, prefer the visible feather shaft....and as yet no one has produced a bird that doesn't have it. SO - why don't we craft language into the draft SOP to include this trait? (Especially since the CL forebears (gold legbar in particular) have it mentioned in SOP --- and --- we have a working theory that it was omitted by accident from SOP in the UK. --- A revision would not remove the potential USA SOP from draft status - and if anyone ever found a CL that doesn't have it, then it could be revised out -- but otherwise - what would be the objection to incorporating it in the draft SOP?

If a beautiful bird is NOT autosexing is it still a cream legbar? (I say 'no')
If a Cream Legar lays other than blue or bluish green or greenish blue eggs is it still a Cream Legbar?
How much coloration is going to be "permissible" or are all the birds raised from two true CL parents CLs?

Got all my chickens back last night and the yard is like the plague of locusts - except crawling with grasshoppers.... I will have to get a movie of them when I let them out this morning.

ChicKat--I too and so glad that Walt has weighed in, opinions like his are invaluable.
1) Agreed, some feather shafting is visible in all UK birds to some degree that we have seen.

2)Are we spending too much time on appearance?--Yes and No. I personally am with you that for me, the color is not as important as type. However, the club is crafting an SOP that will be be present exactly how we write it in 100 years and I dont want someone then wondering why we did something--we need to have over-thought out everything and beat it to death to make it right or they will be sorry. As Walt pointed out, color is sometimes weighed more heavily than type in shows so it is important for the SOP to get it right.

3)(see 'they will be sorry' in 2) the SOP for Gold Legbars specifically allows shafting and mentions lacing just on the back, but it is mot mentioned on the breast at all. Did they intend to have shafting on the back but not on the front? This makes no sense. After thinking on it, I suspect that they mentioned it 'as allowed' on the back because the contrast between the brown feather and the cream is very striking and they did not want to have birds eliminated based solely on that, but they did not mention it on the breast because all of the birds have it to some degree but they did not want to to be excessive. If you look at my photos of my CL vs Wellie--it is excessive on the Wellie and if we allow it in the SOP it will be encouraged and the CLs may start to look like her which I wouldn't want to see either.
-Middle ground: Perhaps crafting the SOP to say something like 'lighter or cream colored shafts are allowed but should be minimal' so that girls with more refined shafting will be placed over girls with aggressive shafting but they wont be penalized in general against other breeds for best in show for those that do want to show later. Walt and others will have to be consulted if this is how it really would be interpreted or if there is better wording to be had.

Answers to questions:
-The autosexing is integral to the breed to is must be retained. Now some folks may be better at it than others so there may be some wiggle room/argument in the darker boys/headspot girls.
-In my mind the Cream Legbar must lay blue or green eggs, once it looses that it is no longer a CL.
-IMO, Off-color birds (I assume you are talking Autosomal red or gold but otherwise Cream Legbar colored) in my mind are off-color Cream Legbars as long as they have other characteristics in type for a Cream Legbar. I say this because 'we' have proven that breeders can reduce the Ar and bring out the ig in only a few years (same for the crest because it is easy to add back in). Body type is much harder to improve so throwing out a bird for a simple fix on color would potentially harm the breed in the long run by narrowing the gene pool. Body build (type), autosexing, egg color, over feather color-- as long as the color is off because only one copy of ig or it has too much red saturation.

I am sure you opened a can of worms with this last question!

 

[fowlman01]

'lighter or cream colored shafts are allowed but should be minimal'

I am not saying to use this statement, but this is how you want to describe shafting if you don't want to be penalized for it. It is always best to state the exceptions so that there is no question in the judges/breeders mind.
There is always some gray areas in a Standard, but the less gray areas you have the more accurately the bird is perceived. Like the bible and other well known works, there will always be people who interpret differently than the masses. You need some wiggle room as these are living animals that are impossible to make look exactly identical. Again...there is no perfect chicken, but the idea is to get it as close to the 100 point perfect bird. If the body is described correctly there is no reason a show winner can't produce on an exceptional level.

points are used by the APA/ABA to give a reference to the quality of the bird. These days it is used only for determining a winner in a close class though. When I say cuts, I am taking about points being subtracted from the perfect score of 100. Birds that do well in a show are generally in the 91-96 area. Chest color is 1 to 1 1/2 points deduction for shafting. The chest is only one section.

I recommend that someone working on this reads the first 39 pages of the SOP. This will change your perspective.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

time to buckle down, do the homework and be prepared. Still - it is very eye-opening, and thanks again to FaykokoWV for alerting everyone to this item, thanks to everyone who scouted out pictures and delved into the issue.

good advice Walt thank you.

 

[fowlman01]

The most important thing you folks can do is to discuss this breed with a British judge. If you can find an email address I'm sure they would be delighted to discuss Legbars.

Walt

 

[dretd]

The most important thing you folks can do is to discuss this breed with a British judge. If you can find an email address I'm sure they would be delighted to discuss Legbars.

Walt

I completely agree about needing help from UK, but I cant thank you enough for your advice and help!

I think the way I look at it is that a person, who has never heard of nor seen the breed, should be able to pick up the SOP and be able to confidently judge that bird and deduct points based on the description--that is why is it so important to get the description as simple, straight-forward, yet detailed as possible.

 

[ChicKat]

I completely agree about needing help from UK, but I cant thank you enough for your advice and help!

I think the way I look at it is that a person, who has never heard of nor seen the breed, should be able to pick up the SOP and be able to confidently judge that bird and deduct points based on the description--that is why is it so important to get the description as simple, straight-forward, yet detailed as possible.

Well maybe a judge who hasn't seen the breed before -- as Walt said - there is a learning curve and was it Matt or Walt that said there's an education process. Judges have to have a really well trained eye.

-- Not to be nit pickey here -- but a person who hadn't seen or heard of -- probably wouldn't be a poultry judge -- if we do a good job of spreading the word about the bird. LOL.

Love the idea that I think you are suggesting that the SOP is iron-clad descriptors of this breed.

 

[ChicKat]

To be clear. The APA does not promote pretty birds. If the breed is known for egg laying and autosexing it should do that well. If the SOP is followed the birds should perform......if the body type is written correctly. It s not true that showing is all about pretty bags of feathers. That is the perception online because of dog shows etc. if you read the first 30 pages of the SOP you will see many references to the BODY of the bird. The type....or body of a chicken is the most important part of the bird in a show. Excessively high tails are an indication of an unthrifty bird as an example as is flat breasts etc. The color of the bird should be the last consideration.

When I judge if the bird does not feel like a viable bird in my hand, I don't care how pretty the feathers are. The APA does not get into personalities of the birds, but the structure is very important and it can't perform if the structure is not correct. I can't tell what it's egg production might be when I handle a bird, but I can tell you if it is built right to do the job it was intended to do.

Walt

I apologize if I did imply that showing is just about pretty bags of feathers.... what I was aiming for was that there are birds that are raised for their ornamental value alone, I think ---some of the birds where super long-tailed plumage is really important. hopefully in Cream Legbars utility doesn't get crowded out by the appearance was what I was trying to say.

And I so agree that there isn't anything the same as holding the bird. Finally after all summer (since the snake attack - in which the snake was snarled in the bird netting I put in the run --yay!)
my birds have been elsewhere. Lastnight I got them back. I had forgotten how fluffy and soft feathered they are -- (poor things n this heat with all that fluff) - and how strong underneath. It is different to hold a chicken versus just look at a chicken, versus what we are doing for the most part and looking at chicken pictures. I realize we have to work with what we have.

Regarding personalities - there was a very un-tame rooster in a show where the judge wisely put a note on the cage that said - something to the effect - 'this bird wasn't judged' -- the bird was crazy and vicious -- and a big rooster-- The judge needed to not have big slashes and gashes to continue with his judging, I'm sure.... JMO.

Egg laying and autosexing couldn't be judged for the most part at a show -- although individual egg contests happen at shows, and -- autosexing -- could be seen in juveniles, in Cream Legbars of any age.

In Los Angeles at the County Fair and a few others on the west coast I remember being an awestruck casual observer at the Poultry barn -- but it wasn't until this spring at San Marcos, TX Fancy Feathers 4-H event that I really focused on the competition.

 

[fowlman01]

Well maybe a judge who hasn't seen the breed before -- as Walt said - there is a learning curve and was it Matt or Walt that said there's an education process.  Judges have to have a really well trained eye.

 -- Not to be nit pickey here -- but a person who hadn't seen or heard of -- probably wouldn't be a poultry judge -- if we do a good job of spreading the word about the bird.  LOL.

Love the idea that I think you are suggesting that the SOP is iron-clad descriptors of this breed.  

Most of us learn by looking when it comes to understanding how to apply the Standard. It is very important to promote your breed at shows here in the beginning. Also explain the standard to judges when you are able.

Walt

 

[KPenley]

How can we enter shows before the breed is accepted by the APA?

 

[BGMatt]

How can we enter shows before the breed is accepted by the APA?

You just enter them. I would provide a current version of the standard printed out so that hopefully the judge will look at it. Also if there's multiple people showing them there who are also hopefully club members, perhaps the exhibitors and club could get permission from the show secretary to put up a display educating people on the breed in the showroom somewhere.

This does bring up a good side question, unless I missed it, what class is the Legbar to be in? English I would assume?