Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[CibolaChooks]

Ohh good god  - There is a lot more work to be done yet.  


What % protein are you feeding? 

Why do you want to know weights. What work needing to be done are you talking about

 

[nicalandia]

some photos I took this weekend of a few of the boys in the pen. Still have all 11 and have not culled anyone yet.

keep the first one, has good dark grey barred breast and good cream color...

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Because weights are everything. The first two things to go when a bird starts to get inbred is weight and fertility.
I have had bantam pullets that weigh as much as some of the CLB pullets....

There is a lot to be done to ensure that these birds don't get more inbred.

 

[nicalandia]

Because weights are everything.

not really,

The first two things to go when a bird starts to get inbred is weight and fertility.

American CL are anything but inbred, and they have good fertility

I have had bantam pullets that weigh as much as some of the CLB pullets....

even the lightest of CL hens will outlay any of yor bantam pullets..

There is a lot to be done to ensure that these birds don't get more inbred.

I am sure the weight has nothing to do with weight today, most likely breeders are selecting these small hens(maybe halve a pound less than their larger sisters) because their high productivity(feed/egg ratio)..

 

[call ducks]

Quote:
Nicalandia - weights are a measure of how a chicken is suffering from inbreeding depression. They are clearly inbred when you are seeing hens at 2 pounds 10 ounces at a year old (come on even commerical white layers are not that small).

They may out lay bantams - but that is not the point, size is crucial to a bird.
qMultiple lines may have been imported but who's to tell how the breeding farm bred them? There are two routes a plant or animal can take the invasive species route, and the extinction route. Before there is any more focus put on to getting these accepted in to the APA you have to figure out what is going on with the weights.

It is true that the smaller hens will lay more, larger eggs - but only if the hen has the capacity for it.

Nicalandia - You have a high knowledge in Genetics for that I respect you. But I have done a lot of hands on work with restoring production traits. More so than a lot of people here, I have worked with breeds with only one line in the world. Weights and fertility are the first signs of inbreeding depression.

 

[nicalandia]

Nicalandia - You have a high knowledge in Genetics for that I respect you. But I have done a lot of hands on work with restoring production traits. More so than a lot of people here, I have worked with breeds with only one line in the world. Weights and fertility are the first signs of inbreeding depression.

so you think they are inbred to a detrimental point? whats your plan on restoring the weight and fertility?...

maybe an outcross to larger Mediterranean breed? or larger Exhibition brown legnorns?

 

[CibolaChooks]

Nicalandia - weights are a measure of how a chicken is suffering from inbreeding depression. They are clearly inbred when you are seeing hens at 2 pounds 10 ounces at a year old (come on even commerical white layers are not that small).

They may out lay bantams - but that is not the point, size is crucial to a bird. 
qMultiple lines may have been imported but who's to tell how the breeding farm bred them? There are two routes a plant or animal can take the invasive species route, and the [COLOR=222222]extinction route. Before there is any more focus put on to getting these accepted in to the APA  you have to figure out what is going on with the weights.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=222222]It is true that the smaller hens will lay more, larger eggs - but only if the hen has the capacity for it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=222222]Nicalandia - You have a high knowledge in Genetics for that I respect you. But I have done a lot of hands on work with restoring production traits. More so than a lot of people here, I have worked with breeds with only one line in the world. Weights and fertility are the first signs of inbreeding depression. [/COLOR]

Ill buy into the idea their inbred. fertility has been great but I did get some late quitters last year. Is late quiters a sign of inbreeding. Or poor humidity management during incubation . Id also like to know what would your plan be to help cream legbars

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Indeed I do.

The first thing I would do if I were working with this breed - try to find another source that is completely unrelated by importing (now GFF has imported a new line for 2014 {that's done for you}).

After that was done I would be as many as feasible possible (up to a few thousand) to be able to select the best. Data would be collected (growth rate, weight, etc). Then I cull down to about ~100 breeders taking only the best. Once you have a nice flock established I would then start test mating's with other breeds. One thing that would be really time intensive but maybe the best route is to start from scratch (now I was told to use our Canadian birds). Starting from scratch is what I would do - one would learn so much from it But I just don't have the space right now.

Fertility does not seem an issue right now so that is good.

This has been proven in Sussex to work - and will work with other breeds.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: There are a whole host of reasons why you could have chicks die in shell. It could be humidity, genetics, or something else at play.

See the post above for what I would do ^

 

[WHmarans]

Indeed I do.

The first thing I would do if I were working with this breed - try to find another source that is completely unrelated by importing (now GFF has imported a new line for 2014 {that's done for you}).

After that was done I would be as many as feasible possible (up to a few thousand) to be able to select the best. Data would be collected (growth rate, weight, etc). Then I cull down to about ~100 breeders taking only the best. Once you have a nice flock established I would then start test mating's with other breeds. One thing that would be really time intensive but maybe the best route is to start from scratch (now I was told to use our Canadian birds). Starting from scratch is what I would do - one would learn so much from it But I just don't have the space right now.

Fertility does not seem an issue right now so that is good.

This has been proven in Sussex to work - and will work with other breeds.

I just have one question about this. I honestly do not know much about it so this is just a question.. if you had a few thousand and picked the best 100, it just seems to me like in that many birds the best of them would probably meet the SOP pretty well. So could you not just breed those birds and see if the inbreeding issue is really a problem, in other words would their offspring really definitely be small and show reduced fertility? Can you tell for sure outcrossing is needed?

I've got no issue with outcrossing. I'm just trying to get a clear picture of how you can tell it is necessary. Maybe its more of an issue of being 'beneficial' even if not strictly necessary?