Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[BlackBayouBirds]

Mary,

Your girls look very much like cream legbars - and the imports years prior from Greenfire have alot of orange/ chestnut color, and are cream legbars, the just dont display as much of the
recessive cream gene that they were developed for by Mr. Punnett in the UK.

But your rooster looks very different from any Cream Legbar Rooster out there. He's my suspected cross with something, because no, Bielefelders dont have a crest - Cream Legbars do, and so
does the Cream Legbar Cross, once its been crossed with something because the crest is dominant. Bielefelder was just a guess because of his whole hackle of his neck being completely
yellow like that - they are 10-12 pounders - but I guess any bird with a fully gold neck like that could be the cross.

So the two different colors variations of the Cream Legbar (UK and US coloration) are very real, one highly cream with no chestnut at all is the UK Standard for the
Cream Legbar, and the UK is the Cream Legbar's country of origin. That upsets alot of US Cream Legbar lovers because the first imports into the US are not UK Standard, which is fine -
they are beautiful, colorful, birds, but are differently colored than the UK Standard. Probably the US Standard would be the chestnut streaked because everyone loves it so much.

Here is the UK Cream Legbar Rooster "US" Cream Legbar with Chestnut Roosters Bielefelders and Roo






(Jill Rees Line - Greenfire Farms) 2012 "B Line" Greenfire Farms

http://greenfirefarms.com/chicken/cream-legbars/ http://greenfirefarms.com/2011/11/cream-legbars-a-greenfire-case-study/





Now on ebay here IS a '2nd generation' Greenfire farms Cream Legbar Rooster someone has that looks ALOT like yours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Cream-Leg...a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=121590801145&rt=nc


There are some really Chesnut Cream Legbars. I dont want you to be upset, Mary! I hope, hope, HOPE

those blue round eggs show up for you soon!
I'm sorry if I upset you...Hopefully he is just a reeeeaally chestnut prior import Cream Legbar boy. He's beautiful either way!!

 

[ChicagoClucker]

Mary,

Your girls look very much like cream legbars - and the imports years prior from Greenfire have alot of orange/ chestnut color, and are cream legbars, the just dont display as much of the
recessive cream gene that they were developed for by Mr. Punnett in the UK.

But your rooster looks very different from any Cream Legbar Rooster out there. He's my suspected cross with something, because no, Bielefelders dont have a crest - Cream Legbars do, and so
does the Cream Legbar Cross, once its been crossed with something because the crest is dominant. Bielefelder was just a guess because of his whole hackle of his neck being completely
yellow like that - they are 10-12 pounders - but I guess any bird with a fully gold neck like that could be the cross.

So the two different colors variations of the Cream Legbar (UK and US coloration) are very real, one highly cream with no chestnut at all is the UK Standard for the
Cream Legbar, and the UK is the Cream Legbar's country of origin. That upsets alot of US Cream Legbar lovers because the first imports into the US are not UK Standard, which is fine -
they are beautiful, colorful, birds, but are differently colored than the UK Standard. Probably the US Standard would be the chestnut streaked because everyone loves it so much.

Here is the UK Cream Legbar Rooster "US" Cream Legbar with Chestnut Roosters Bielefelders and Roo






(Jill Rees Line - Greenfire Farms) 2012 "B Line" Greenfire Farms

http://greenfirefarms.com/chicken/cream-legbars/ http://greenfirefarms.com/2011/11/cream-legbars-a-greenfire-case-study/





Now on ebay here IS a '2nd generation' Greenfire farms Cream Legbar Rooster someone has that looks ALOT like yours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Cream-Leg...a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=121590801145&rt=nc


There are some really Chesnut Cream Legbars. I dont want you to be upset, Mary! I hope, hope, HOPE

those blue round eggs show up for you soon!
I'm sorry if I upset you...Hopefully he is just a reeeeaally chestnut prior import Cream Legbar boy. He's beautiful either way!

Mary,

Your girls look very much like cream legbars - and the imports years prior from Greenfire have alot of orange/ chestnut color, and are cream legbars, the just dont display as much of the
recessive cream gene that they were developed for by Mr. Punnett in the UK.

But your rooster looks very different from any Cream Legbar Rooster out there. He's my suspected cross with something, because no, Bielefelders dont have a crest - Cream Legbars do, and so
does the Cream Legbar Cross, once its been crossed with something because the crest is dominant. Bielefelder was just a guess because of his whole hackle of his neck being completely
yellow like that - they are 10-12 pounders - but I guess any bird with a fully gold neck like that could be the cross.

So the two different colors variations of the Cream Legbar (UK and US coloration) are very real, one highly cream with no chestnut at all is the UK Standard for the
Cream Legbar, and the UK is the Cream Legbar's country of origin. That upsets alot of US Cream Legbar lovers because the first imports into the US are not UK Standard, which is fine -
they are beautiful, colorful, birds, but are differently colored than the UK Standard. Probably the US Standard would be the chestnut streaked because everyone loves it so much.

Here is the UK Cream Legbar Rooster "US" Cream Legbar with Chestnut Roosters Bielefelders and Roo






(Jill Rees Line - Greenfire Farms) 2012 "B Line" Greenfire Farms

http://greenfirefarms.com/chicken/cream-legbars/ http://greenfirefarms.com/2011/11/cream-legbars-a-greenfire-case-study/





Now on ebay here IS a '2nd generation' Greenfire farms Cream Legbar Rooster someone has that looks ALOT like yours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Cream-Leg...a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=121590801145&rt=nc


There are some really Chesnut Cream Legbars. I dont want you to be upset, Mary! I hope, hope, HOPE

those blue round eggs show up for you soon!
I'm sorry if I upset you...Hopefully he is just a reeeeaally chestnut prior import Cream Legbar boy. He's beautiful either way!!

Don't feel bad, I am not upset with you. There is just doubt in my mind now, and these couple of weeks are going to kill me, LOL.

 

[chicken pickin]

Mary,

Your girls look very much like cream legbars - and the imports years prior from Greenfire have alot of orange/ chestnut color, and are cream legbars, the just dont display as much of the
recessive cream gene that they were developed for by Mr. Punnett in the UK.

But your rooster looks very different from any Cream Legbar Rooster out there. He's my suspected cross with something, because no, Bielefelders dont have a crest - Cream Legbars do, and so
does the Cream Legbar Cross, once its been crossed with something because the crest is dominant. Bielefelder was just a guess because of his whole hackle of his neck being completely
yellow like that - they are 10-12 pounders - but I guess any bird with a fully gold neck like that could be the cross.

So the two different colors variations of the Cream Legbar (UK and US coloration) are very real, one highly cream with no chestnut at all is the UK Standard for the
Cream Legbar, and the UK is the Cream Legbar's country of origin. That upsets alot of US Cream Legbar lovers because the first imports into the US are not UK Standard, which is fine -
they are beautiful, colorful, birds, but are differently colored than the UK Standard. Probably the US Standard would be the chestnut streaked because everyone loves it so much.

Here is the UK Cream Legbar Rooster "US" Cream Legbar with Chestnut Roosters Bielefelders and Roo






(Jill Rees Line - Greenfire Farms) 2012 "B Line" Greenfire Farms

http://greenfirefarms.com/chicken/cream-legbars/ http://greenfirefarms.com/2011/11/cream-legbars-a-greenfire-case-study/





Now on ebay here IS a '2nd generation' Greenfire farms Cream Legbar Rooster someone has that looks ALOT like yours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Cream-Leg...a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=121590801145&rt=nc


There are some really Chesnut Cream Legbars. I dont want you to be upset, Mary! I hope, hope, HOPE

those blue round eggs show up for you soon!
I'm sorry if I upset you...Hopefully he is just a reeeeaally chestnut prior import Cream Legbar boy. He's beautiful either way!!

I do not think that @ChicagoClucker has mixed breed chickens. The male looks to me like a Cream Legbar that is a little over melanized and possibly carrying gold, but he is still a Cream Legbar.

Many Many Many Cream Legbars look the male posted showing chestnut and gold that will happen here and in the UK. ALL of the Cream Legbar lines that came from Greenfire were imported from the UK, we didnt have Cream Legbar in the US Cream prior to the CLs that GFF had . It just so happens that Cream Legbar are gold based and often the gold shows through. It is a balancing act when breeding to accomplish the "proper" cream color. These colorful males don't occur because they arent Jill Rees or UK Standard, its because CL still have so much work that needs to be done on them, here and in the UK.

I honestly don't find the Rees Line to be any better than the previous lines GFF was selling. The Rees line isn't colored properly or barred properly the size and type is off also. A lot of work to be done with this breed, and I am enjoying breeding them and finding my way to a new achievement with each breeding.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi BlackBayouBirds,

We are neighbors -- (sort of -- LOL - I'm in East TX - just about an hour's drive from LA - like South Toledo Bend State Park - and the radio station I listen to is out of Shrieveport)--- howdy!

The cresting gene is actually incompletely dominant. This means that one copy doesn't affect the bird the same way that two copies affect the chicken. Normally a dominant gene will appear the same one or two copies to my understanding and a recessive will be entirely invisible.


I had bred my CL who's crest is moderate to an Isbar of mine - and the resulting male had a noticeably smaller crest (only one cresting gene)--- Looking at Chicago Clucker's male - it would definitely be my guess that he has two copies of a cresting gene and thus couldn't be hybrid of Bielefelder.

Over the years there has been a lot of controversy about the correct coloration of a Cream Legbar. As I said earlier, color isn't the most important trait of the breed. There are some folks who actually dislike the Jill Rees coloration of Cream Legbars - so please be aware of that factor. The 2014 UK winner in their biggest show has a bit more true cream in the hackles and less white-looking color.



In addition, in the 1980's when David Applegarth saved the Cream Legbar from extinction for the most part - the Cream Legbars that he remembered seeing in the days that he worked with Punnett looked similar to this photo of David Applegarth CL:


Here is what one cresting gene looks like on a Cream Legbar X Isbar - "Ice Cream Bar"





Not good crest views- but definitely there!

We honestly are not able to do better than educated guesses about people's chickens unless we do know the breeding - so even my guess about chicago Clucker's male's crest is just that a guess.

Old timers in the breeding game tell people to "build the barn and then paint it". What they mean by that is that we should fix the traits such as type, disposition, egg-laying ability - and in our case blueness of eggs - before we focus on the external plumage color. -- Everyone who raises and manages chickens has their own approach - and each should follow their own path to get to the goal for their flocks.

Which is the perfect segway for me to say -- I'm so glad that you are in the Cream Legbar Club -- as of yet you are the only Louisianan in the membership listing - and I'm glad that you are being an active supporter of the breed. 2015 is shaping up to be an exciting year for the Cream Legbar's progress -- and there is a club meeting scheduled for Saturday March 14th - as far as I know - so we really will be kicking off the year - and I hope to see you there (on line of course, since the meetings are virtual) -- there is talk of an online Cream Legbar show in 2015 - and perhaps some egg contests during the year.... Thanks for the contributions that you are making and the involvement with the breed. As we all go forward, we do need to realize that the Cream Legbar is not quite the finished product as of yet, but rather a 'work in progress'.

 

[BlackBayouBirds]

Chicken Picken,

Well Good to Know!!

Hoping he is full blood for Mary! Never meant to upset her.

#1 I know all Cream Legbar lines were imported to the US by Greenfire farms and said so in my post - their prior imports have alot of chestnut

#2 Who said this recent import from Jill Rees of Greenfire farms in BETTER than other imports?? They are more cream. Why do you hate cream

and feel the need to say how people dont like it? I never said, "People dont like the chestnut.." I said the chestnut imports are beautiful birds.


I think you're feathers may be ruffled from something I neither said nor implied.

Sorry I had to come on strongly but you're typing that I typed things I did not, and that's upsetting for you to imply that.

Let's please keep these threads friendly, please!

 

[BlackBayouBirds]

Hey Chickat,

Hey Neighbor! Ice Cream Bar - how cute!! Love that name! Oh yes....I feel I've stumbled into a bees nest. Both colorings exist, yes, and the US Standard might have a name
for gold and cream, I think they are BOTH PRETTY!

I look forward to seeing ya online then! I wanted to be part of the breed in US, and love the Cream Legbar Club so far but I'm hoping it doesnt become a charged debate every time someone mentions color...I would like us to all be able to discuss without 'BETTER' coming into dialogue - it just sounds nasty.

Its pretty stressful that an off hand comment (I've never seen a nearly all gold cream legbar rooster like that) that I made sure Mary knew I wasn't trying to be picky - she just said she wasn't sure about that breeder - turned into combative thread replies on there being one color more important than the other. I don't understand why the stress surrounding color.

I probably will not post anymore, just to avoid the stress, because to me chickens are peaceful and fun - I thought Mary had doubts, too, otherwise I never would have said anything.
I'm actually really upset, that she seems upset now.

I will join Mary in sharing lovely pictures, and leave the debate to the more combative.

Hope things can still be friendly! I'd love them to be

"See" you at the online meeting! LOL

 

[ChicKat]

Hey Chickat,

Hey Neighbor! Ice Cream Bar - how cute!! Love that name! Oh yes....I feel I've stumbled into a bees nest. Both colorings exist, yes, and the US Standard might have a name
for gold and cream, I think they are BOTH PRETTY!

I look forward to seeing ya online then! I wanted to be part of the breed in US, and love the Cream Legbar Club so far but I'm hoping it doesnt become a charged debate every time someone mentions color...I would like us to all be able to discuss without 'BETTER' coming into dialogue - it just sounds nasty.

Its pretty stressful that an off hand comment (I've never seen a nearly all gold cream legbar rooster like that) that I made sure Mary knew I wasn't trying to be picky - she just said she wasn't sure about that breeder - turned into combative thread replies on there being one color more important than the other. I don't understand why the stress surrounding color.

I probably will not post anymore, just to avoid the stress, because to me chickens are peaceful and fun - I thought Mary had doubts, too, otherwise I never would have said anything.
I'm actually really upset, that she seems upset now.

I will join Mary in sharing lovely pictures, and leave the debate to the more combative.

Hope things can still be friendly! I'd love them to be

"See" you at the online meeting! LOL

Hi BlackBayouBirds -

Here's hoping that you will reconsider and continue to post. Everybody's viewpoint is of value - and we will all need to keep expressing them - even if the views are NOT all aligned in order to iron everything out - and get to the bottom of it. We are a community of people raising this breed. I thought that only we got into these 'discussions' where people got their feelings bruised, but now I have seen some real knock-down-drag-out opposing views in other breeds, and by comparison - the Cream Legbar Community is quite civilized, I'm pleased to observe.

I apologize if my comments seemed unfriendly -- The Cream Legbar group is a pretty friendly bunch all around. IMO I don't think that you could find a better person than Chicken pickin to provide insights to the CL -- not only does she have both Jill and non-Jill birds in her flock - but she has a very discerning eye and perhaps the best flock of CLs in the USA. Everything in her post is accurate and that is important. No one "hates cream"* -- but I for one will become irate if I see inaccuracy - so, I and all of us need to try to be really sure of what we are saying about the breed---and in the end there are some things that we don't know. Our objective here is to help each other out. Did you see the female chick in another thread that maybe isn't a Cream Legbar? In 2012 I was pretty quick to tell people that they didn't have CLs if I saw one that didn't look the way that I thought it should. Now that I know more about how the recessive genes are brought out, now that I have bred more CLs - I have a different perspective about telling anyone that their CL is not a CL - or that it is incorrect.

Probably prior to the time you had the breed - there was a better/worse controversy over colors. I have two friends that were driven out of Cream Legbars because they were told that the chickens that they paid a lot of money for were not Cream Legbars -- and they got discouraged. So I do have some sensitivity in that area. That is where some of the color woes originate.

Now-a-days more of the people raising them are looking for the answers to the questions that the breed presents us with - and people realize that there is going to be value in all the good Cream Legbars out there -- and although one may not have the optimum color that we are seeking - that a judge in the UK described as *'pale butter' - it may have a bluer egg, or a more frequent egg - and all the pieces of the puzzle would have to be in place to have 'perfection'. Jill Rees line, in addition to the points mentioned by chicken pickin tends to have a greener egg, and fewer of them, and there were some health issues in some places. We need to have a strong and diverse gene pool for our breed - and that will mean lots of CLs that are unrelated to the Jill Rees birds and healthy Jill Rees birds as well -- but certainly we don't want to narrow the gene pool in the USA to just that line of CLs.

We are lucky that there are serious-minded people working with the breed, we all need to keep open minds, and we need to realize that we are working toward that SOP goal - but no one is quite there as of yet.

 

[chicken pickin]

Chicken Picken,

Well Good to Know!!

Hoping he is full blood for Mary! Never meant to upset her.

#1 I know all Cream Legbar lines were imported to the US by Greenfire farms and said so in my post - their prior imports have alot of chestnut

#2 Who said this recent import from Jill Rees of Greenfire farms in BETTER than other imports?? They are more cream. Why do you hate cream

and feel the need to say how people dont like it? I never said, "People dont like the chestnut.." I said the chestnut imports are beautiful birds.


I think you're feathers may be ruffled from something I neither said nor implied.

Sorry I had to come on strongly but you're typing that I typed things I did not, and that's upsetting for you to imply that.

Let's please keep these threads friendly, please!

My feathers are not ruffled at all, and I thought my post was friendly sorry you didn't see it that way.

#1 In the way you typed it to me read that we have UK standard types(Jill Rees) and US standard types(all the others) and that the colorful CL were more to US standard. I don't think that is true per se. Our drafted SOP is very similar to the UK SOP. But it is all how each individual interprets those standards when breeding. It is all how each individual understands the wording of the SOP how they decide to go about their breeding as to what color their CL will be.

#2 It wasn't said by you that the Rees line was better and I didn't imply that. I simple was stating my own opinion that I personally and honestly don't find the Rees Line to be any better than what is already out there from prior lines I have the Rees Line and I also have other Lines, and have not mixed my Rees Line with my other CL flock as that is my own personal preference. Also just putting it out there that the Rees line is not necessarily more cream because they are lighter and lack gold, yes they are lighter in color and are not showing as much chestnut or gold as we see in other lines but because many of the Rees Line lack those gold colors they appear more washed out and they dont show the nice warm cream butter color they should rather more of a white color.

Also Im not sure where this was ever in my post Why do you hate cream and feel the need to say how people dont like it? I never said, "People dont like the chestnut.." I said the chestnut imports are beautiful birds. I never said this. I do not hate cream, I am working very hard to better my CL flocks by getting the right balance of colors and barring to my personal interpretation of the SOP.

But as @ChicKat mentioned and we all need to remember this. Type first, color later, type is far more important.

Im sorry if you thought I was not being friendly, maybe we just read each others posts wrong. I try to keep my posts somewhat neutral as to not cause a stir but maybe it doesn't always work that way lol.

 

[ChicagoClucker]

I want to thank ALL of you, for all the help! if BlackBayouBird didn't make her comment, all of this great discussion wouldn't have come up. I wouldn't have learned what I have throughout this discussion. So Thanks to all 3 of you, I have gained a lot insight, into this beautiful breed.

 

[BlackBayouBirds]

Thank you Chickat! I'm sure I'm being too sensitive - I shouldn't have mentioned anything.

I had to PM Mary to apologize, I definitely am not an expert, think I am, or want anyone feeling bummed at all!

I want feel good all around

That actually strikes me as funny about 'pale butter' LOL, I guess I can imagine comparing with a stick of it. LOL.

That sounds very English - you're right, we all have a long way to go! LOL.

I'm very pleased to make your acquaintance Chickat, and Chicken Pickin, I'm glad we all share a love of Cream Legbar!

Hope you all have a FABULOUS WEEK!*

Lindsay