Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Which again makes no sense on a thread about a breed that only lays blue eggs.

Any and every legbar has the blue egg gene or he/she is not a Legbar.

Some "projects" like the lavender legbar project have introduced some rogue white egg genes into the breed, so the lavender legbar breeders in particular are starting to package up batches to ship off for feather testing to eliminate those heterozygous birds.

 

[Bantambird]

Finally bred a cream instead of a gold crele from my pure AB line. He's got a few flaws, and he needs to grow up some, but I've had this group for 8 years and I don't have trio pens I've been group breeding with two groups of 7-8 per group. My dream is to get smaller, better controlled groups, but I can hatch a pretty good number and then cull through.
I'm so excited to finally get a cream cockerel!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

View attachment 2901659View attachment 2901658
Finally bred a cream instead of a gold crele from my pure AB line. He's got a few flaws, and he needs to grow up some, but I've had this group for 8 years and I don't have trio pens I've been group breeding with two groups of 7-8 per group. My dream is to get smaller, better controlled groups, but I can hatch a pretty good number and then cull through.
I'm so excited to finally get a cream cockerel!

Recessives like Ig are so persistent I find it hard to believe you've never had a cream in 8 years if cream exists in the line!

Where do you look for indicators of cream vs gold, generally?

 

[Bantambird]

It's strange, I know. Have had a few cream females, or single cream gene, but the first imported line had a lot of gold and not as much cream in it. I don't have smaller breeder pens so targeted breeding is a little tougher but I am super selective about the males especially and the cull females get sold as layers to the community allowing me to breed quite a few. There have been a few lighter colored males, but this is the first one that looks like everyone else's idea of "cream" from my group. I've had them get like yellow butter, but not the pale colored cream color.

 

[Bantambird]

Here are a typical pair of cockerels in my bachelor pen. Most of them are this color. Most focus has really been on conformation and health over color, but I do want good color too.

 

[Bantambird]

Here's the girl pen with a nice older gent who has lost his comb and the cream cockerel. There is one for sure cream pullet in there. The rest are gold crele with one or no cream gene.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

View attachment 2902027
Here are a typical pair of cockerels in my bachelor pen. Most of them are this color. Most focus has really been on conformation and health over color, but I do want good color too.

These are beautiful. Where are you located? I'd be pleased as punch to produce this. What do the primary flight feathers look like?

 

[Bantambird]

These are beautiful. Where are you located? I'd be pleased as punch to produce this. What do the primary flight feathers look like?

Here's a cockerel I caught up about 5-6 months old. He's got a pretty decent comb/crest, nice lobes, Here's the primaries. I'm just outside of Billings, MT.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

View attachment 2902235View attachment 2902237View attachment 2902238View attachment 2902239
Here's a cockerel I caught up about 5-6 months old. He's got a pretty decent comb/crest, nice lobes, Here's the primaries. I'm just outside of Billings, MT.

To me this looks like a cream bird with high autosomal red showing up.
For obvious reasons, the preference in CREAM legbars is for birds that look like they are actually silver duckwing based rather than gold duckwing with cream modifiers.

The secondary feathers and wing triangle on this bird look pretty obviously cream to me. I'd also say those bright brassy saddle feathers are obviously Ig diluted compared to what you'd see on the same bird with the gene.

These types exist in a no man's land in the Legbar breed though, apparently. I think a lot of highly colored birds like this are probably cream but they're so easily mistaken for Golden Crele that they wind up sort of... inbetween.

I want Golden Crele birds that look like this:

Your cockerel, by comparison, is much more like a barred version of this cream Dutch Bantam:

However, if we're going to have golden crele and cream, it makes sense to breed for distinctively different appearances and therefore cream birds with very little autosomal red or diluted gold that more resemble a Silver Crele are the reasonable solution I guess.

There is an article by Jean Robocker on The Coop site called "Understanding the Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam" that I found very enlightening for understanding the range of colors we see in Cream Legbars. (I don't think I can post a link here, but you should be able to find it by Googling that information.)

Of variations within the Cream Light Brown variety (which is the Ig gene on a light brown/gold duckwing bird) she says:

"Because the addition of the gene for Cream color is a simple recessive, the Light Brown carriers of the gene will produce some Cream Light Brown offspring. But these birds may have red or dark orange heads instead of the beautiful blond heads of the correctly colored birds. The best hackle color will be Creamy-yellow from head to tip of hackle, but with the same black striping that the Light Brown and Blue Light Brown birds show. Some individuals will have "dead-straw" colored or very pale cream hackle, not really correct."​

And truly, if you look at the few other breeds that recognize true CREAM varieties, such as the Brabanter and the Dutch Bantam, you do see a huge range in possible color.

Basically, I'm saying I think most birds we call "Golden Crele" in this breed are very possibly just poorly colored creams, or more brightly colored creams than what we're conditioned to strive for (which is basically visually almost indistinguishable from a silver crele with some autosomal red AKA "chestnut" leakage). It's rare that I see so-called Golden Crele birds that truly show no indication of dilution at work.

 

[Bantambird]

To me this looks like a cream bird with high autosomal red showing up.
For obvious reasons, the preference in CREAM legbars is for birds that look like they are actually silver duckwing based rather than gold duckwing with cream modifiers.

The secondary feathers and wing triangle on this bird look pretty obviously cream to me. I'd also say those bright brassy saddle feathers are obviously Ig diluted compared to what you'd see on the same bird with the gene.

These types exist in a no man's land in the Legbar breed though, apparently. I think a lot of highly colored birds like this are probably cream but they're so easily mistaken for Golden Crele that they wind up sort of... inbetween.

I want Golden Crele birds that look like this: View attachment 2902264

Your cockerel, by comparison, is much more like a barred version of this cream Dutch Bantam:

View attachment 2902267


However, if we're going to have golden crele and cream, it makes sense to breed for distinctively different appearances and therefore cream birds with very little autosomal red or diluted gold that more resemble a Silver Crele are the reasonable solution I guess.

There is an article by Jean Robocker on The Coop site called "Understanding the Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam" that I found very enlightening for understanding the range of colors we see in Cream Legbars. (I don't think I can post a link here, but you should be able to find it by Googling that information.)

Of variations within the Cream Light Brown variety (which is the Ig gene on a light brown/gold duckwing bird) she says:

"Because the addition of the gene for Cream color is a simple recessive, the Light Brown carriers of the gene will produce some Cream Light Brown offspring. But these birds may have red or dark orange heads instead of the beautiful blond heads of the correctly colored birds. The best hackle color will be Creamy-yellow from head to tip of hackle, but with the same black striping that the Light Brown and Blue Light Brown birds show. Some individuals will have "dead-straw" colored or very pale cream hackle, not really correct."​

And truly, if you look at the few other breeds that recognize true CREAM varieties, such as the Brabanter and the Dutch Bantam, you do see a huge range in possible color.

Basically, I'm saying I think most birds we call "Golden Crele" in this breed are very possibly just poorly colored creams, or more brightly colored creams than what we're conditioned to strive for (which is basically visually almost indistinguishable from a silver crele with some autosomal red AKA "chestnut" leakage). It's rare that I see so-called Golden Crele birds that truly show no indication of dilution at work.

I can honestly agree with this, I've just been told often enough that my birds are too colorful that I accepted it. I actually like the colorful look over the almost-silver look. I've never had a "true" gold crele, like what a gold crele leghorn might present.

You've made my day, honestly.