Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[normanack]

Thank you all for your words of comfort and encouragement. It really helps!

And right back at you all with hugs and encouragement -- so many of us have lost birds to disease, predation, and other chicken dangers.

And thank you for all your kind offers. Despite my moaning about finances, having issues affording a pricey hobby pales in comparison to having trouble affording the necessities of life. I'm more than a bit embarrassed by my self-indulgent sorrow.

Marching on.

 

[Laingcroft]

So sorry to hear about your loss.

I started out with two females and one male because they were so expensive last spring. Unfortunately, my boy has too much chestnut per the English standard and both girls are crestless. On the positive side, the roo is from a different line. I've bred them and hatched three girls and two boys so far. Only one girl and one boy are promising. Then I ordered eggs (which weren't "too" pricey at $10 each, except that only 1/4 (2 out of 8 - 6 + 2 extra) hatched. Both were girls and both have crests. So now I have one up and coming replacement roo with mix of two original bloodlines, two original girls, and two completely unrelated and crested girls.

I believe as more of us start raising these chickens and adding to our flocks in search of "SOP" quality birds, the price will go down. You may have to wait another 6 months if you don't want to take advantage of generous offers already made while you predator proof your pens, but you certainly don't need to call it quits altogether.

 

[ChicKat]

I had a pullet that had bad eye-sight....she couldn't peck a meal worm from my palm, but would miss and peck at my skin. I was trying to work with her in rehabilitation -- thinking that she won't have good vision but maybe she could compensate.... She is one that was killed by the raccoon. I have to say she would jump to the top of the sticks that I had in the brooder, and jump into your hand....she was very eager and friendly and fast becoming a favorite. (I really like tame chickens a lot)

Now her sister that has a missing wing, seems to be growing amazingly well -- but she has the same eyesight problem. She cannot peck just one thing. She does ok in a full feed dish -- but cannot get one thing...and if she gets something and drops it, she can't retrieve it. I'm thinking she may hang on -- but will never 'thrive'. (and how could she thrive with just one wing anyway)

Anyone else have a chicken with weak eyes. I know that both the cockerels in that hatch were super-sharp-eyed, and could pick a mealworm off at a long distance. LOL I was wondering if this pullet had some brain-damage due to her loss of blood or the rerouting of blood vessels due to her amputation - or if it was genetic. I think that from that hatch the other two females had no eye problems, one was killed by raccoons and one I no longer have, so I can't compare. I'm wondering if it is the compacted genetics.

IT makes me say that people have gotten pretty wrapped around coloration. It could be that the colors will become an indication of different genetics and we need to promote as much genetic diversity as we can for the health of this breed. We are all impatient to get our perfect SQ birds out there..... but there are a lot of other important factors to weigh. JMO.

Happy New Year to everyone everywhere.

 

[babymakes6]

I plan to work on color LAST. "Build the barn and THEN paint it" you know?

 

[tadkerson]

If anybody wants help with breeding regimens or genetics, send me a pm and direct me to the string in a post or send me a pm to discuss things.

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

I think I'm out of the Cream Legbar business. :-(

A hawk got my non-gold Cream Legbar pullet today (Christmas. Thanks, hawk.) This is my first chicken loss to a predator. Hawks have already hit four of my chickens, including my Cream Legbar cockerel, but only caused minimal damage those times. I guess it has refined its technique.

Joan was such a nice hen. She was quiet and shy, but had enough gumption not to get picked on. She wasn't a cuddly bird (only one of mine is -- a Silky) but I loved her nonetheless. She was just about ready to lay, getting a redder comb and investigating the nest boxes. Poor baby. :-(

I'm down to one cockerel and one pullet. I love them both dearly, but had been counting on Joan, who was the only one of the three who had good silver (cream) coloring. James is exceedingly colorful, lots of chestnut and red, and has a right-angle comb. I think he's gorgeous, but the standard doesn't agree. Jett, the remaining pullet, is very gold.

I don't think I can manage a breeding program with only two birds and a very determined hawk (and a recession-affected bottom line). That hawk got through fishing line strung at 2-inch intervals across the entire chicken yard. Rats.

Please keep my membership dues for the club. I'll miss you all.

Here is a suggestion. Use the two birds you have and work with them to produce the body conformation and color for a gold legbar. When you get some nice looking birds with good body conformation etc. then introduce the cream gene from another bird- maybe you could trade a few gold legbars for a cream bird.

I would be interested in seeing the SOP for legbars. The genetics behind the plumage color of the birds is pretty strait forward. It is the body conformation that I need to read about. What breed has a conformation similar to the legbar SOP.

Tim

 

[normanack]

I believe as more of us start raising these chickens and adding to our flocks in search of "SOP" quality birds, the price will go down. You may have to wait another 6 months if you don't want to take advantage of generous offers already made while you predator proof your pens, but you certainly don't need to call it quits altogether.

Here is a suggestion. Use the two birds you have and work with them to produce the body conformation and color for a gold legbar. When you get some nice looking birds with good body conformation etc. then introduce the cream gene from another bird- maybe you could trade a few gold legbars for a cream bird.
Tim

Thank you both. Holding my first dead bird, still warm, and watching the hawk fly away right through the fishing-line barrier -- the sadness, guilt, and loss hit hard. Looking forward, I can see that there are/will be Cream Legbars near enough not to need shipping, and that my not-perfect-birds are actually just fine. Not perfect, but pretty darn good in many ways. And I treasure them.

 

[GaryDean26]

My wife swore that one of our cockerels was blind or had an illness that was degenerating his vision. He had the same problems. He would peck all around the treats, but never hit them. I wasn't sure it it was a vision problem, or if he was just pointing to the treats as he called the rest of the flock over to the grub. At any rate he could see larger object with out any problems (like my hand every time it went into the coop). I might have to do some vision checks with my up and coming Legbars to see who can hit the small fast bugs and who can't.

 

[GaryDean26]

Yes, people HAVE got pretty wrapped up about the coloration (myself included). Breeding plans are pretty much divided into two group;

1) Breeding for Vigor: Which deals with the inbreeding coefficients, general health, hardiness, disease resistance, etc. of the flock
2) Breeding for Type: Which entails the color, shape, size, egg size, egg color, egg production rate, etc. of the flock.

The quickest way to improve type is to breed your hen that is best in that area with your cockerel that is best in that area and cull everything else. It is easy to see how that is also the quickest way to run out of gene pool. So every breeding program has to find a balance between Vigor and Type breeding.

The way the an American Heritage Livestock Association article suggested to do this was to keep multiple breeding lines. Their case study was a Buckeye recover program. In their first season they only had 5 pullets hatch. Instead of culling the least promising pullets they started five breeding lines. When evaluating for breeder they only compared birds with other birds from the same line. One line could have been across the board better than the other four, but instead of taking all their breeders from that line, they would selected breeders from all the breeding lines and focused on improving every line every year. They said that it is often tempting to take shortcuts and just focus on the best line or best breeding pair, but that in the long run improving the whole flock is the best plan for sustainable flocks.

The best plan for vigor is probably the one called out-and-out breeding. That is bringing in an unrelated cockerel from a different source every breeding season. The drawback to that is that you have very little control over the improvements in type. The best type breeding method is probably line breeding. That is selecting a bird that is a perfect as possible and breeding offspring back multiple generations to fix all the traits in place.

Another plans include, but are not limited to
Flock Breeding: This is maintaining a flock with around 200 hens and 10-15 cocks
Rolling Mating: Breeding Cockerels to Hens and Pullets to Cocks every year (this ensures that full siblings are not paired)
Spiral Breeding: Setting up multiple breeding lines and passing cockerels in the same direction each year (i.e. a cockerels from flock #1 always goes to flock #2, and the cockerel from #2 to #3 and #3 to #1)
Yard Breeding: Similar to Spiral Breeding but I think that the cockerels can be used in any flock that is not their own (no set rotation).
Clan Breeding: Similar to Yard Breeding, but eggs are tracked from every hen and pedigree of every chicken in the flock is maintained to track where the type improvement (and defects) are coming from.
Single Mating: Similar to Clan breeding only inbreeding coefficients are tracked rather than setting up breeding line (back breeding used in single mating, but not Clan Breeding)
Three-in one-out: This is a form of line breeding that starts with a near perfect pullet and near perfect cockerel (unrelated). Pullets are bread back the cock three times, and cockerels are bred back to the Hen three times. Then a new breeding cockerels is selected from the Hen's line and new pullets from the cockerel's line and the process starts over. After the 2nd round of 3-in 1-out new blood lines is set and continued breeding will pair the most distant related birds in the flock. Type is set and will stays with the distant breeding and vigor returns.

Okay....that is a summary of about everything I know. Still it is a struggle to find what works best especially when you are also balancing coop space, flock size, record keeping limitations, etc.

 

[babymakes6]

Thank you both. Holding my first dead bird, still warm, and watching the hawk fly away right through the fishing-line barrier -- the sadness, guilt, and loss hit hard. Looking forward, I can see that there are/will be Cream Legbars near enough not to need shipping, and that my not-perfect-birds are actually just fine. Not perfect, but pretty darn good in many ways. And I treasure them.

Yes!