Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Yes, I'm hearing that strategy more and more....

Now if only there were a way to know the genetic background of the ones that we would want to introduce some years down the road to obtain both the genetics we want and be certain that the genetics are what we would expect them to be. ;O)

 

[Dahlisgrams]

Yes, I'm hearing that strategy more and more....

Now if only there were a way to know the genetic background of the ones that we would want to introduce some years down the road to obtain both the genetics we want and be certain that the genetics are what we would expect them to be. ;O)

Personally, I'm trying to keep good records of my breeding stock lines of origin, not that I'm planning to keep the lines "pure", but I think knowing what gene pool each line came from will make it easier down the road to make improvements. At least that's the theory. We'll see how it works in practice.

 

[ChicKat]

I have heard that good breeders keep really good records.

The more professional they are, the more strictly they will keep them. I think I have seen in books and videos where some very serious chicken raisers that have separate domiciles for separate chickens and families, hatch the chicks in hatching baskets so that there can be no confusion in the incubator --- and legband the chicks upon hatching or perhaps more likely with some, toe punch the babies right away. There are some very serious breeders

On the other hand there are some that take more casual, Laissez- faire approach.

Thinking down the road too -- I think that good records, good tracking of lines and knowing the derivation of the flock will pay dividends.

 

[normanack]

There's an interesting discussion on the Cream Legbar Breeders Group on facebook about the desired amount of chestnut color in cockerels. I'm not sure how to link to a specific post -- it's by Claire Akrill on February 1, 2013 at 1:23 p.m. Expand the comments (if they aren't already). Bonnie Hall, Jill Rees, Kate Harland, Clive Moores, and Emily de Gray chime in as well.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I have heard that good breeders keep really good records.

The more professional they are, the more strictly they will keep them. I think I have seen in books and videos where some very serious chicken raisers that have separate domiciles for separate chickens and families, hatch the chicks in hatching baskets so that there can be no confusion in the incubator --- and legband the chicks upon hatching or perhaps more likely with some, toe punch the babies right away. There are some very serious breeders

On the other hand there are some that take more casual, Laissez- faire approach.

Thinking down the road too -- I think that good records, good tracking of lines and knowing the derivation of the flock will pay dividends.

We do this with most of our birds. Even with the larger flocks like the sumatras, we still know at least which rooster it is from. The hens are grouped in family groups with different roosters which makes it much easier. With other projects, I do them in such small numbers that I know who the parents all were and their whole lineage. We normally mark eggs then keep them in baskets in the hatcher. If there are 2 different breeds, we'll mix it up in the baskets. An example would be that the baskets hold 6-8 eggs, well if a breeding from one pen only has 2 eggs (lets say wyandotte) and another breeding only has a few eggs (from a faverolle) we'll put those eggs together since we can tell them apart at hatching, it makes banding the chicks so much easier. When they're hatched, they each get a zip tie or an ink dot for the first week, then we change the zip ties every so often as they grow and eventually they get a colored/numbered band

 

[ChicKat]

We do this with most of our birds. Even with the larger flocks like the sumatras, we still know at least which rooster it is from. The hens are grouped in family groups with different roosters which makes it much easier. With other projects, I do them in such small numbers that I know who the parents all were and their whole lineage. We normally mark eggs then keep them in baskets in the hatcher. If there are 2 different breeds, we'll mix it up in the baskets. An example would be that the baskets hold 6-8 eggs, well if a breeding from one pen only has 2 eggs (lets say wyandotte) and another breeding only has a few eggs (from a faverolle) we'll put those eggs together since we can tell them apart at hatching, it makes banding the chicks so much easier. When they're hatched, they each get a zip tie or an ink dot for the first week, then we change the zip ties every so often as they grow and eventually they get a colored/numbered band

Bravo, perfect example of how the birds can be identified.

I would feel very comfortable, were I to purchase birds for my flock, to purchase from fmp - and know exactly what I am getting. Thanks! All the more reinforcing that good stock of Cream Legbars could be obtained within the breed, and outcrossing wouldn't be a requirement.

 

[ChicKat]

There's an interesting discussion on the Cream Legbar Breeders Group on facebook about the desired amount of chestnut color in cockerels. I'm not sure how to link to a specific post -- it's by Claire Akrill on February 1, 2013 at 1:23 p.m. Expand the comments (if they aren't already). Bonnie Hall, Jill Rees, Kate Harland, Clive Moores, and Emily de Gray chime in as well.

Any chance you could summarize for us non-facebook users?

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Any chance you could summarize for us non-facebook users?

Let's see if this works. I started to copy and paste from facebook but it is probably a better idea to just summarize.
Claire posted a picture of her boy, 29 weeks, with only a hint of chestnut on his shoulders. She asked if he had enough chestnut. It was mentioned that some chestnut is required to get good salmon color on the female offspring's breasts. With too much they look more like a gold legbar, which wouldn't be right because gold legbars don't have the cream gene, so maybe more like a cotswold legbar (meaning just a legbar mixed breed in my understanding).
Here's Bonnie's great comment:

Bonnie Hall The important thing is where the colouring is.
CLB boys are genetically e+/e+ (wild type) s+/s+ (gold) ig/ig (cream)B/B (barred) the red seen on the shoulders of e+ birds is what gives the hens a nice rich salmon breast, and in the boys it seems more resistant to colour change/dilution. (I don't know all the genetics behind this!) The gold in other areas is paled to yellow by the barring gene and then futher paled by the cream gene.
When a bird shows no chestnut at all in the shoulder area, there is a question mark over whether he is carrying all the correct genes and whether he will throw correctly coloured pullets with salmon breasts. There are many breeders out there who favour cockerels with plenty of colour in the shoulder area over the paler cockerels. My own breeding boy has some colour in the shoulder area and I'm happy with the colour of the girls he threw last year, but I wouldn't reject one that had more colour in that area than he has, plenty of well known and well respected breeders select for it. Some even suggest that to get the colour right in both boys and girls, double mating may be necessary!
Has that helped or confused?

Bonnie Hall If you look at the picture of Tree Chambers' lad, this is the kind of thing some breeders are saying you need for good coloured girls. The standards say "Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible" and I would personally say her lad has gone from 'some' to all in that area, which is where there seems to be a little conflict between standards and some breeders. I wish her lad was nearer to me, I would love to see the difference in colour (if any) between girls thrown by my lad and ones thrown by hers.
Saturday at 1:45am · Like

Tree Chambers commented in that there were no girls in that batch.
Bonnie then explained some breeders feel there must be a lot of chestnut on the shoulders to get good coloring on the females, but both she and Emily and others have been breeding their boys with very little chestnut and getting good color on the pullets.

Bonnie Hall I suspect we have heard it from the same person Although I have noticed a growing number of people subscribing to the theory - is that because there's truth in it or because it's easier than finding a cockerel that meets the breed standards?
I'd like to test the theory for myself. I'm only learning with genetics and it's easier for me to see things with my own eyes by test mating than by reading things. It seems to me that just because the colour has been diluted by the barring and cream genes, doesn't mean it's disappeared from the genetic make up! It's still there and should surely still be able to influence colour in the girls? - well, you, me, Jill etc breeding from our 'too pale' boys and still producing correctly coloured pullets kind of proves that doesn't it?
I'd just be really interested to see if there is any difference and if so what that difference is.
Saturday at 4:29pm · Like · 2

Bonnie Hall Not sure there's a straight forward way of answering that Tree, which is probably why no one has! lol All animals' looks are determined by the genes of their parents. In chickens, pure breeds and colours generally breed true, that is to say that the o...See More
Sunday at 10:45am · Like · 2

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Bonnie's last comment got cut off:

"Not sure there's a straight forward way of answering that Tree, which is probably why no one has! lol All animals' looks are determined by the genes of their parents. In chickens, pure breeds and colours generally breed true, that is to say that the offspring look the same as the parents. But there can be hidden (recessive) genes, which would effect the outcome, and some breeds (like serama) don't breed true to colour, and then colours like blue don't breed true. There's a genetics group if you want to learn more https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/groups/chickengenetics/"

 

[ChicKat]

normanack and lonnyandrinda---

It seems that we are closing in on answers to some of 'life's most persistent questions' - Thanks you two.

Added - Tadkerson had mentioned to me that (this would be the opposite side of the coin in the facebook discussion) selection of females with paler salmon my lead to lighter offspring - if my memory serves about that message.