Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[Lostsins]

Let's see if this works.  I started to copy and paste from facebook but it is probably a better idea to just summarize.
Claire posted a picture of her boy, 29 weeks, with only a hint of chestnut on his shoulders.  She asked if he had enough chestnut.  It was mentioned that some chestnut is required to get good salmon color on the female offspring's breasts.  With too much they look more like a gold legbar, which wouldn't be right because gold legbars don't have the cream gene, so maybe more like a cotswold legbar (meaning just a legbar mixed breed in my understanding).
Here's Bonnie's great comment:





Bonnie HallThe important thing is where the colouring is.
CLB boys are genetically e+/e+ (wild type) s+/s+ (gold) ig/ig (cream)B/B (barred) the red seen on the shoulders of e+ birds is what gives the hens a nice rich salmon breast, and in the boys it seems more resistant to colour change/dilution. (I don't know all the genetics behind this!) The gold in other areas is paled to yellow by the barring gene and then futher paled by the cream gene.
When a bird shows no chestnut at all in the shoulder area, there is a question mark over whether he is carrying all the correct genes and whether he will throw correctly coloured pullets with salmon breasts. There are many breeders out there who favour cockerels with plenty of colour in the shoulder area over the paler cockerels. My own breeding boy has some colour in the shoulder area and I'm happy with the colour of the girls he threw last year, but I wouldn't reject one that had more colour in that area than he has, plenty of well known and well respected breeders select for it. Some even suggest that to get the colour right in both boys and girls, double mating may be necessary!
Has that helped or confused?





Bonnie HallIf you look at the picture of Tree Chambers' lad, this is the kind of thing some breeders are saying you need for good coloured girls. The standards say "Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible" and I would personally say her lad has gone from 'some' to all in that area, which is where there seems to be a little conflict between standards and some breeders. I wish her lad was nearer to me, I would love to see the difference in colour (if any) between girls thrown by my lad and ones thrown by hers.
Saturday at 1:45am · Like
 

Tree Chambers commented in that there were no girls in that batch.
Bonnie then explained some breeders feel there must be a lot of chestnut on the shoulders to get good coloring on the females, but both she and Emily and others have been breeding their boys with very little chestnut and getting good color on the pullets.















Bonnie HallI suspect we have heard it from the same person Although I have noticed a growing number of people subscribing to the theory - is that because there's truth in it or because it's easier than finding a cockerel that meets the breed standards?
I'd like to test the theory for myself. I'm only learning with genetics and it's easier for me to see things with my own eyes by test mating than by reading things. It seems to me that just because the colour has been diluted by the barring and cream genes, doesn't mean it's disappeared from the genetic make up! It's still there and should surely still be able to influence colour in the girls? - well, you, me, Jill etc breeding from our 'too pale' boys and still producing correctly coloured pullets kind of proves that doesn't it?
I'd just be really interested to see if there is any difference and if so what that difference is.
Saturday at 4:29pm · Like · 2










Bonnie HallNot sure there's a straight forward way of answering that Tree, which is probably why no one has! lol All animals' looks are determined by the genes of their parents. In chickens, pure breeds and colours generally breed true, that is to say that the o...See More
Sunday at 10:45am · Like · 2

For every one that is still confused as to what your birds should look like and for British standards here are a couple good links.
https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/home
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/
http://www.harislau.info/legbar
http://www.scartoppoultry.co.uk/

 

[ChicKat]

For every one that is still confused as to what your birds should look like and for British standards here are a couple good links.
https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/home
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/
http://www.harislau.info/legbar
http://www.scartoppoultry.co.uk/

Nice links, Thanks.

 

[Lostsins]

The breeders on these links are some of U.K.'s best. They offer some great photos of what we should all be aiming for. Please pass along these links as they are the best that I have personally been able to dig up.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Just joined the facebook group today, lots of info there

 

[ChicKat]

The breeders on these links are some of U.K.'s best. They offer some great photos of what we should all be aiming for. Please pass along these links as they are the best that I have personally been able to dig up.

https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/home
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/
http://www.harislau.info/legbar
http://www.scartoppoultry.co.uk/

The hen in the first link, standing in front of a lot of ribbons and wearing a purple legband...looks exactly like some hens in the USA - there is a watermark 'middle farm'. IMO, that is what we are aiming toward.

The hen in the last link, scartop, (after you click on 'Cream Legbars') bottom center photo toward the back - looks a little pale IMO -- and the photo in lower left corner, the pair looks a bit 'washed out'. more white or silver than cream, on my screen --

The second link has a photo of Emily de Gray's Cream Legbar
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/
This coloration is less appealing to my eyes than the hen in the first link (Perhaps my monitor) - There isn't a softly barred appearance, but rather, a solid light gray-- the bird is less distinctive than the first link, and the salmon breast-feathers have faded to a pink color on that hen. (time for a new computer?) - I wonder if that is really what we are aiming toward? Awhile back, I posted a Silver Legbar cockerel link (from Australia), but have yet to see a sliver legbar hen...has anyone got a photo of Silver Legbar hen to put side by side for comparison? It's also interesting that the example chicks show a white headspot on the male chick and no white headspot on the female chick. All the male chicks hatched here on the ranch, had distinctive white headspots---and some of the females did have tiny white spots but nothing like the ones on the males.

, and the second to last link beautiful eggs.

For the most part, those concerned with working on the USA SOP are following the British, especially since that is where the breed developed. There are some differences, however, and one of the most notable is that the olive eggs have not shown up in the USA Cream Legbars at all to the best of my knowledge. The following from your link:




Note : This is a crested variety laying a blue, green or olive egg.

Standard Weights: Cock: 7 to 7½ lb; Cockerel 6 to 6½ lb .
Hen: 5 to 6lb; Pullet 4½ to 5lb

SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10
100 Points
Serious Defects: Male's comb twisted or falling over. Ear lobes wholly red. Any white in face. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. Squirrel tail.

Defects(for which a bird may be passed): Side sprigs on comb. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast. Wry tail. Any bodily deformity

Downs, Female (Cream): Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with ground colour - the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background.

Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may best be described as pale

Last -- but not least

Has anyone here on this thread done any work on Type? It seems that almost all the discussion revolves around color.... ​

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Good notes. By the way the Middle Farms birds belong to Bonnie Hall, the same one that I quoted from Facebook. Scartop Poultry is Amanda Rowe. Although Emily deGray is considered one of the top authorities on Cream Legbars in the UK, it appears that she is no longer breeding Cream Legbars (this was stated on Bonnie's website). I assume she still has a flock for herself but she no longer buys and sells them. Those are three of the names that fly thick and heavy when you talk about correct UK Cream Legbars on the internet.

For type discussion: this is my adult rooster. I feel his type is wrong but I don't have the terms to say why. He just seems too compact/stocky. I feel his boys are much closer to what we are aiming for? Can anyone pick out what I'm trying to say?

 

[ChicKat]

This is insightful.

When I posted Ice compared to the silhouette on the logo for the Cream Legbar Club (in it's R.C. Punnett illustration form) it was noted that his back is shorter. Perhaps shorter backs give the roosters that thicker, stockier look?

 

[Lostsins]

Good notes. By the way the Middle Farms birds belong to Bonnie Hall, the same one that I quoted from Facebook. Scartop Poultry is Amanda Rowe. Although Emily deGray is considered one of the top authorities on Cream Legbars in the UK, it appears that she is no longer breeding Cream Legbars (this was stated on Bonnie's website). I assume she still has a flock for herself but she no longer buys and sells them. Those are three of the names that fly thick and heavy when you talk about correct UK Cream Legbars on the internet.

For type discussion: this is my adult rooster. I feel his type is wrong but I don't have the terms to say why. He just seems too compact/stocky. I feel his boys are much closer to what we are aiming for? Can anyone pick out what I'm trying to say?

Is the one on the left older? If they are the same age then I would think that the one on the left has the correct body type. The one on the right seems to have less chestnut on the shoulders. Some chestnut is ok but is not desirable. They are some of the best looking boys I've seen so far.

 

[babymakes6]

Is the one on the left older? If they are the same age then I would think that the one on the left has the correct body type. The one on the right seems to have less chestnut on the shoulders. Some chestnut is ok but is not desirable. They are some of the best looking boys I've seen so far.

I agree-those two seem about perfect to me!
Rinda, I believe I may have mentioned that before. The first roo is not Leghorn type in my eyes-he has more of a heavy-breed type, like an Orpington almost. He is very pretty, though!

I am getting some of the new line of Legbars next week! I may order as many males as females, just so I can see how they grow out. Who would have thought a bunch of extra roosters would be desireable?

But to me they are!

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Mary theSheriff just posted on the Stella's Social Club the picture of her shipment of new line GFF chicks- my jaw DROPPED at the color of the males! Go see, go see!!

Those boys are the same age, I believe mid September hatch. The left one is stretching up a bit in the photo, I will go out and look tomorrow and see if they appear different but they both look almost the same to me.

Rinda