Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

ours should be permissible to. If we decided to try and be better working from harder stock seems like a up hill battle most wont win. Cant make an sop for 10% of our stock. We should make an sop for what represents 90% of our stock. its been several years and people are still working on color and tail angles as well as lots of other form issues, it would be strange to just make things harder for people.

Perhaps the important things are what distinguish and differentiate this breed from the others. I agree that tail angles are all over the map -- and of course we are going mostly from photos which only capture an instant...and unless the bird is a trained to pose bird - he is probably suspicious of someone shooting him.

Part of it all IS that the existing SOP is in draft form and the wrinkles can be ironed out IMO.

Part of it is that we who care about this breed and the future it has will need to make the huge effort to have some kind of events where the APA will cooperate with us and evaluate the birds. I know that there is a lot of support in APA for youngsters who show their Bantams...and I think that if we were to work out an event --perhaps in each Region or in a metro area - or in a geographic region where an APA judge would participate - we could have some expert eyes look over and or compare two birds etc. and perhaps have a video made for the Club or for people who want to promote and support this breed where the SOP as it is now is walked through step-by-step with an experienced judge saying how he/she would interpret this characteristic from the SOP, as applied to this bird in hand -- and we could have that recorded. Then perhaps compare to a different bird...etc. That would only take 1-video-ographer, one judge, and two owners with birds to at least get a comparison. More could come on board if time and distance were to allow -- it would kind of be like a judging -- but not really -- it would kind of be like a seminar..that we would have to video because we are so dispersed. Maybe since San Marcos had a show last spring that has some CLs entered - we could contact that judge and arrange - since there are a lot of CL people located near San Marcos, TX -- set up something like that -- any interest out there folks? Any other regions, regional directors who would want to delve into such a Cecile B deMille effort. :O)

 

[dretd]

I guess we are not sure if this is 'bad breeding' or if is meant to be there but was left out of the British SOP, or if some breeders excluded it because they did not like it or the shafting did not match their flock.

Could you elaborate about the genetics behind the shafting? I think this is key to understanding the 'problem'. Is the 'problem' with the birds or the SOP as written and how easy or hard is it to remove if we find out that it is a 'problem' with the birds?

 

[ChicKat]

This is really good information and the sort of information we need to see.

Perhaps it was missed by accident.

Or perhaps the Cream lightens the overall feather color so it was not as distinct so they didn't feel worth mentioning? The slightly paler edging also makes me think of lacing, which I did see in some of the Cream Legbars photos I saw on various UK sites. Interesting.

Either way, if it was in the breed standard of the breeds that were used to make the Cream Legbar. How likely is it that the breeders that worked to get the CL in to acceptance deliberately changed the standard to meet the non-shafted birds. If it wasn't a simple oversight or seemed unnecessary to include it, why would they do this? This would mean that they took some extraordinary efforts to specifically work on removing this one particular trait from their flocks for some unknown reason ( breeder preference in aesthetics perhaps), or it meant that they happened to have hens without the shafting and wanted to craft the SOP to match their particular flocks.

I guess 'we' need to ask ourselves what 'our' goals are in crafting the SOP in the US.

I am still thinking about it but my first reaction is this is a cosmetic problem so not as important as some of the other points to consider.
For me, I am wondering if it is worth the extra handcuffs you will place on breeders or those that want to get in to the breed by excluding the shafting. Will this further the breed? Will is make it more difficult to breed and more exclusive? What is the choice that with benefit Cream Legbars as a breed? Will having this make it more difficult to get the breed into APA acceptance because 90% don't conform on a point that may or may not have been in the original breed from 80 years ago we are trying to model?

How difficult would it be to remove it from the breed and why is it there genetically? Does it come along with other genes that we want to remove as well like the autosomal red? Understanding the genetics of what is behind the shafting seems pretty important to making an informed decision about the shafting. How does one find out about the genetics behind the feature in this case? Who could help us out in this case? I haven't seen Nicalandia around in a while, he used to give a lot of insight behind some of the genetics. Ideas?

I actually like some shafting--I think it breaks up the color block and think it is more aesthetically pleasing than a solid color, but that is just my opinion.

Wow Dr that's insightful. :O)

Tadkerson on the BYC and Henk69 from Netherlands are superb geneticists and would probably have some insights for us...... Tim? Henk? are you out there anywhere??

 

[faykokoWV]

BGMatt - I had to chuckle when you mentioned Welsummers having this issue. That's what prompted all of this discussion. I have yet to see a picture of a Welsummer without shafting either - we even brought some Dutch in on the conversation - all their pictures showed shafting on the breast as well.

I too would like to hear of the genetics around it

 

[BGMatt]

BGMatt - I had to chuckle when you mentioned Welsummers having this issue. That's what prompted all of this discussion. I have yet to see a picture of a Welsummer without shafting either - we even brought some Dutch in on the conversation - all their pictures showed shafting on the breast as well.

I too would like to hear of the genetics around it

The solution probably falls upon double mating. That's what a lot of OEGB guys do to get good chest color in the females in applicable varieties. I have heard both hackle color and male chest color is linked to the shafting. For example: With Black Breasted Red, if a male had a bit of red in his chest his female offspring would have better chest color, but obviously his male offspring would be subpar and likely have more red in chest. I do not have the experience to know what you'd look for in a Legbar male to create less shafting on females chest.

 

[ChicKat]

The solution probably falls upon double mating. That's what a lot of OEGB guys do to get good chest color in the females in applicable varieties. I have heard both hackle color and male chest color is linked to the shafting. For example: With Black Breasted Red, if a male had a bit of red in his chest his female offspring would have better chest color, but obviously his male offspring would be subpar and likely have more red in chest. I do not have the experience to know what you'd look for in a Legbar male to create less shafting on females chest.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the male with the strongest cream produced females with breast shafting. As I recall Punnett's research mentioned that cream was more prevalent in females when he started out --- and more rare in males. Maybe cream dads produce females with that visible shaft...it would be a tell of the double cream in females.

Anyone with yellowish hackles, are the shafts more subdued in your bird's salmon??

 

[KPenley]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the male with the strongest cream produced females with breast shafting. As I recall Punnett's research mentioned that cream was more prevalent in females when he started out --- and more rare in males. Maybe cream dads produce females with that visible shaft...it would be a tell of the double cream in females.

Anyone with yellowish hackles, are the shafts more subdued in your bird's salmon??

My cream girl has more subdued shafts in the breast area (like just about the same color as the web), but her back feathers show the lightened shafts like the golden girls. There is a greater contrast in the neck and hackle feather shafts of the cream girl than the golden girls though.

 

[ChicKat]

My cream girl has more subdued shafts in the breast area (like just about the same color as the web), but her back feathers show the lightened shafts like the golden girls. There is a greater contrast in the neck and hackle feather shafts of the cream girl than the golden girls though.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply. ;o)

 

[fowlman01]

You folks are very busy. I will give you my feedback when I return from the state fair on Monday. There is no bird that meets it's Standard perfectly.

Walt

 

[BGMatt]

My cream girl has more subdued shafts in the breast area (like just about the same color as the web), but her back feathers show the lightened shafts like the golden girls. There is a greater contrast in the neck and hackle feather shafts of the cream girl than the golden girls though.

Back shafting is much easier to get rid of by basic selective breeding (hatch a ton a cull mercilessly). Basing this statement on experience with Crele which are a similar pattern.