Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[KPenley]

I don't know how a judge reads it, but I'm wondering if "some chestnut permissible" has the implication that a little chestnut is tolerable though not desirable. In other words, with two otherwise identical roosters, would the one with "some chestnut" be judged lower than one without any chestnut?

Or maybe I'm reading way, way too much into this.

Yes, this is how it is described by the UK show winners. But in most birds of the same caliber in body shape, it is the rooster with smudges of chestnut that wins over the bird with red in the shoulder. Double barring and cream can dilute mahogany, but not red.

 

[CibolaChooks]

Looks like three beautiful boys. Are #2 and #3 from the same pairing as #1? They almost look like they're missing a dose of barring. I wouldn't do a final evaluation until they're all filled in. Watch that little crested pullet! She has some very promising grey/cream barring in her crest already! Beautiful birds!

they come from diffrent hens. Golds with no crest. the 1st came from a cream hen with a large dark crest.


first one came from these first three pics. this is what got me him.


Both my roos lost the tips of there comb to frost bite. this is shortly after it happend

hen on the left



THe 2nd and 3rd came from these hens. this one looks kinda cream in the shade and gold in the sun.

 

[ChicKat]

I recognize these photos because I posted something similar last October 6, 2012



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/180

The rooster in the top photo was described as "As colorful as you would like" so not necessarily ideal but advising that he may still be suitable but you would not want to use anything more colorful than this, so somewhere between him and the really pale rooster would be more ideal.
Emily de Gray is in the breeders page and I for one am not willing to doubt her breeder experience, advice or knowledge and I am not sure she or Jill espouse about really pale birds.
I feel that no matter what is said the genes will in the end denote what is possible. I am a big fan of test breeding any bird at this early point in the breed here in America. Even if a track I take proves unfruitful for creating a better Cream Legbar there is knowledge to be garnered from the journey and with my original gold bird that is soooo true but the same is said with her original mate with opposingly positive results.
I think in breeding these birds that the cream gene expresses itself inconsistently dependent upon the level of autosomal red but that is something I am still looking at in my own pens. I look to the secondaries and saddle for signs of gold and the shoulders for chestnut levels.. I have also found that the saddle does lighten itself over time. Hens have only one copy of cream is what I got from Niclandia early on in this discussion so I am assuming that the level of autosomal red has an affect on the tone of the that expression as I have some really cream hackled birds with more red at the throat and breast and my really pale cream birds with pale breast and clean throat areas. So you can have a slightly colorful rooster mated to a cream hen and get a nicely colored cream rooster with the right genetic pairings. The hackle and saddle color is not the same genetic color as the shoulder is where the discussion was heading I believe. My grasp of the correct scientific language is not great but it is interesting to see these topics pop up over and over again and the different levels of discussion that arise each time. I hatched a lot of chicks recently due to my situation and have gotten a good number of nice cream colored pullets and a fair amount of gold ones but not as many as i was expecting so I have a few thoughts bubbling up in my head I cannot put words to yet. I am rethinking my pens and rethinking my pens given the discussion topics here and what I see in my own birds. I am thinking of what Steen posted (on another thread) regarding brother to sister matings, adding outside stock for mating and then line breeding. I think I have enough pen space to try that next year I think. In regards to the dark down we had a discussion much earlier on about the tone of the down and if I remember correctly there was discussion on the dark being single barred but perhaps still cream due to the tone being more gray but I am not remembering if there was any resolution.

Sorry for the long post but I've been doing a lot of looking at my chicks and pens and have a lot of thoughts percolating in my head. I need a get-away vacation to give me a mental and visual break.

So it was YOU!!!!

Thought that the rooster was familiar. Thanks for the posting - haven't seen you around byc for a while, but it sounds like you have been really busy. Grab those flip-flops and head for some water so you can get in your inspired thinking time.

 

[blackbirds13]

Very nice roosters Steen. I like your first boy for both type and color and agree with KPenley on the pullet. Looking forward to seeing photos as they develop more.

I enjoyed my first read of the article but will go over it several times probably for more clarity. (I enjoyed it so much I subscribed). I had been looking at the secondaries for the wing bay/triangle color for indications of gold and was curious about the red near the neck areas in some of my cream colored hens but lacking in others and a few other ideas that were addressed in this article. Thank you 3riverschick for posting!
My lack of as many gold girls as I anticipated getting and so many more cream colored ones has me tossing around so many ideas in my head but the males take much longer to really mature I just have to wait. As for type...I am not seeing anything too alarming for either the males or females except for the combs and crazy crests, especially on some of my boys. I gave away this boy pictured below that was already expressing too much color, but with a comb that looked like it belonged to a pullet, to one to a person who wants to make olive eggers and decorative backyard layers. This is him here with his poofy crested head. The combs are so tricky - I was going over old photos and I have some that display a good twist that then straighten right up... but not sure my husbands going to go for my waiting that long on all the roosters I have in that grow out pen and those yet to come in the bator....







ETA - ChicKat.... heading south to Florida soon to see the folks, my sister and my 2nd son, AWESOME daughter-in-law and grandson. I cannot wait!!!!.... have flip-flops at the ready!

 

[ChicKat]

they come from diffrent hens. Golds with no crest. the 1st came from a cream hen with a large dark crest.


first one came from these first three pics. this is what got me him.


Both my roos lost the tips of there comb to frost bite. this is shortly after it happend

hen on the left



THe 2nd and 3rd came from these hens. this one looks kinda cream in the shade and gold in the sun.

Super pictures of your hens!!!

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: It reads a lot easier if you mentally substitute the word red for pheomelanin and black for eumelanin.
Best,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

I don't know how a judge reads it, but I'm wondering if "some chestnut permissible" has the implication that a little chestnut is tolerable though not desirable. In other words, with two otherwise identical roosters, would the one with "some chestnut" be judged lower than one without any chestnut?

Or maybe I'm reading way, way too much into this.

I am a judge and that's how I would read it. The implication is that it is OK, but not desirable. I suppose it could be taken a couple different ways, but you don't want the judge making the decision if there is another way to state it. I think the word "permissible" adds a negative note to it. I have seen permissible and allowed used, but both have a somewhat negative feel.

Walt

 

[lonnyandrinda]

It reads a lot easier if you mentally substitute the word red for pheomelanin and black for eumelanin.
Best,
Karen

Thanks I will try that!

 

[TheTropix]

Hi BGMatt,

What you wrote makes sense, my take is that if the rooster has the amount of color that the middle photo has, you have a light rooster - but not pure 'cream' or silvery, and you will still get the salmon breast on the hens from that type rooster. If you go to the whitish rooster in the first picture, then the females will have faded breasts and you would have to have a pen to raise males with non-salmon breasted females, thus producing light rooster without any red or gold, and a pen of dark-colored roosters to produce your salmon breasted hens. (i could be mis-understanding him).

I very strongly think that isn't a real successful approach to a breed....

So yes, I guess if we don't want to have to double mate the breed we need to change one or the other to have an SOP that makes sense. Thanks for the clear and concise summary.

I certainly hope this isn't what we do to the Breed! I read through a little of the history, not studied, however. I still do not recall anything about having to double breed, or anything else, to ensure the Breed color fit a very particular color.... which cannot be maintained without double breeding. I know very little about these things, but I'm learning!. That doesn't sound right, in any shape or form, to me either.

 

[TheTropix]

I don't know if that came out how I meant., what I meant is.. If you have to do 'special' breeding to maintain a color Standard because it has been bred out of the Breed for the sake of the elusive slivery/whiish rooster with no chestnut on him, who is unable, genetically, to maintain the color of a 'properly' colored hen. Then, you have to also maintain a flock of good quality roosters, with the very chestnut color we have right now to get that 'proper' color on the next gen. of girls back .. to what we have already, right now. WTHeck? . I I don't get it!