Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[harriedhomemaker]

I came across the photo of this guy today and asked permission to repost it for a discussion on body type. What caught my attention were the high attachment of the body to the legs. This looks lot more like the historical photo on the left of the Cream Legbar that I have seen on other Cream Legbars but I am still wondering if this is weakness that should be breed away from or a well built bird. Anyone know?

When I saw that photo on the Cream Legbar Breeders FB page, I almost asked a question about whether this guy would be considered stilt-y or not. IMO, it is. I don't know whether there are any inherent reasons why a bird should not have such LOOOONG legs, but I personally find them unattractive.

 

[ChicKat]

Yes, I tend to agree with you HarriedHomemaker.....

 

[DeltaBluezTess]

Personally, whether it is standard of not, I like a bird that is well balanced on all ends.

 

[nicalandia]

dont know if this has been posted before...

I took time and read the paper, I was always asking whats the source of the dark vs light chick down on the male?

well the source was from the Danish Brown Leghorn used.

source: http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf

 

[KPenley]

Has anyone been keeping track of the weights breeders have been presenting for Cream Legbars? I know they've been low, and I'm wondering if we need to change any of the numbers to the lower ends of the standard weights presented in the PCGB (Females 4.5-6 lbs., Males 6-7.5 lbs.). The UK presents a range, we have to choose one number per category for the APA.

Our draft (Pullet 4 lbs., Hen 6 lbs., Cockeral 6 lbs., Cock 7 lbs.)

My 2 cents: As others have mentioned, I think that we can increase weights by breeding our largest birds together over the next few years. It's important to keep in mind, though, that overweight counts less in point deductions than underweight. So it may be in our best interest to lower the numbers, while keeping in the standard range for hen and cock, just a bit.

I weighed a couple of birds tonight. My biggest pullet (10 months) weighed in at 4 lbs. 1 oz, so I feel like 4 lbs. is definitely obtainable. My cock weighed in at a low 5 lbs. 3 oz., so I have some work to do there.

 

[ChicKat]

Has anyone been keeping track of the weights breeders have been presenting for Cream Legbars? I know they've been low, and I'm wondering if we need to change any of the numbers to the lower ends of the standard weights presented in the PCGB (Females 4.5-6 lbs., Males 6-7.5 lbs.). The UK presents a range, we have to choose one number per category for the APA.

Our draft (Pullet 4 lbs., Hen 6 lbs., Cockeral 6 lbs., Cock 7 lbs.)

My 2 cents: As others have mentioned, I think that we can increase weights by breeding our largest birds together over the next few years. It's important to keep in mind, though, that overweight counts less in point deductions than underweight. So it may be in our best interest to lower the numbers, while keeping in the standard range for hen and cock, just a bit.

I weighed a couple of birds tonight. My biggest pullet (10 months) weighed in at 4 lbs. 1 oz, so I feel like 4 lbs. is definitely obtainable. My cock weighed in at a low 5 lbs. 3 oz., so I have some work to do there.

Good insights KP!

It may be wise to draft a time-line -- for example every January we get some 'averages' or some bench marks. If in 2-years we are facing the same thing - we should definitely put a revision in the SOP. Therefore, if by say Dec 2015 or Jan 2016, we don't have birds that match the weights, then we should definitely revise.

Someone wise - I can't remember if it was Walt or Tim Adkerson; remarked that if we have a SOP that is totally unreachable, we will be doing the Breed more harm than good because people will become discouraged and switch to an easier breed to obtain 'show quality' chickens. Someone told us to not write an " SOP that is completely unattainable."

Although the breed did originate in the UK, there are so many things going on/wrong with the UK birds, that I am more inclined to try to go back to Punnett's roots than to the present UK birds. One specific example of this is the Olive Eggs. It came into the SOP after Punnett's original description of the Breed, it doesn't "improve" the breed IMO, and yet there it is acceptable now. So the weights he gave:

WEIGHT: 6 to 6-1/2 lbs in cockerels; 7 to 7-1/2 lbs in cocks.

WEIGHT: 4-1/2 to 5 lbs in pullets; 5 to 6 lbs in hens.

are my targets--- and I am a long way off... (turning 1-year this month and weighing 3.5 is the remaining CL that I have...- But the pullet without a crest was 4#, and the one with the overly-large crest for my taste was also 4.-- my pullet also lays size small egg around 1.6 to 1.7 - a bit short of medium..... So I'm targeting a bit bigger than our SOP....

Selecting for size, feeding for growth -- etc. I think we will get there before long.

Perhaps all chickens in very hot climates are going to tip the scales at a lower rate than those in cooler places. My chickens spend the Majority of their time in the 75-and-above temperatures (see chart below). When chickens are panting to try to cool themselves off, it not only reduces feed consumption but also changes their internal body chemistry and electrolyte balance. I think that the USA is warmer over all than England - and we just may have to adjust down the weights to face our reality. But I think that can be pushed into the future.

Table 1. Heat Stress and ambient temperatures &and Abient Temperature

​

55° to 75°F ​

​

​

​

​

Thermal neutral zone. The temperature
range in which the bird does not need to alter its basic metabolic rate or behavior to maintan its body temperature
​

65° to 75°F

​

​

​

​

Ideal Temperature range
​

75° to 85°​

​

​

​

​

A slight reduction in feed consumption can be expected, but if nutrient intake is adequate, production efficiency is good. Egg size may be reduced and shell quality may suffer as temperatures reach the top of this range.
​

85° to 90°F​

​

​

​

​

Feed consumption falls further. Weight gains are lower. Egg size and shell quality deteriorate. Egg production usually suffers. Cooling procedures should be started before this temperature range is reached
​

90° to 95°F​

​

​

​

​

Feed consumption continues to drop. There is some danger of heat prostration among layers, especially the heavier birds and those in full production. At these temperatures, cooling procedures must be carried out.
​

95° to 100°F​

​

​

​

​

Heat prostration is probable. Emergency measures may be needed. Egg production and feed consumption are severely reduced. Water consumption is very high.
​

Over 100°F​

​

​

​

​

Emergency measures are needed to cool birds.
Survival is the concern at these temperatures.
​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

The above from article By Kenneth E. Anderson, Extension Poultry Specialist and Thomas A. Carter, Specialist-in-Charge, Poultry Science Extension, North Carolina State University

 

[GaryDean26]

The way I have been following the weight standards is that the ideal weight is the middle of the range (i.e. 5-1/2 lbs hens) but that +/- 1/2 lbs is allowance with out any point deductions. Ya...I think bumping down from the top of the range would work for me.

 

[KPenley]

perhaps we could do a points incentive in January to encourage everyone to weigh their birds

 

[dretd]

Quote:

Selecting for size, feeding for growth -- etc. I think we will get there before long.

Perhaps all chickens in very hot climates are going to tip the scales at a lower rate than those in cooler places. My chickens spend the Majority of their time in the 75-and-above temperatures (see chart below). When chickens are panting to try to cool themselves off, it not only reduces feed consumption but also changes their internal body chemistry and electrolyte balance. I think that the USA is warmer over all than England - and we just may have to adjust down the weights to face our reality. But I think that can be pushed into the future.

​

55° to 75°F ​

​

​

​

​

Thermal neutral zone. The temperature
range in which the bird does not need to alter its basic metabolic rate or behavior to maintan its body temperature
​

65° to 75°F

​

​

​

​

Ideal Temperature range
​

75° to 85°​

​

​

​

​

A slight reduction in feed consumption can be expected, but if nutrient intake is adequate, production efficiency is good. Egg size may be reduced and shell quality may suffer as temperatures reach the top of this range.
​

85° to 90°F​

​

​

​

​

Feed consumption falls further. Weight gains are lower. Egg size and shell quality deteriorate. Egg production usually suffers. Cooling procedures should be started before this temperature range is reached
​

90° to 95°F​

​

​

​

​

Feed consumption continues to drop. There is some danger of heat prostration among layers, especially the heavier birds and those in full production. At these temperatures, cooling procedures must be carried out.
​

95° to 100°F​

​

​

​

​

Heat prostration is probable. Emergency measures may be needed. Egg production and feed consumption are severely reduced. Water consumption is very high.
​

Over 100°F​

​

​

​

​

Emergency measures are needed to cool birds.
Survival is the concern at these temperatures.
​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

The above from article By Kenneth E. Anderson, Extension Poultry Specialist and Thomas A. Carter, Specialist-in-Charge, Poultry Science Extension, North Carolina State University
Sorry I couldn't eliminate the table above for space

Certainly parts of the US are warmer than the UK, however, some parts are colder--we have a very large country with everything from the South to Alaska represented. My temps last year ranged from 103F as a high to -29F as a low. So both hot and cold though usually not sustained more than a week at either extreme.

I think that the size will come if we ( all the folks that want to work on flocks to help with APA acceptance) concentrate on that being important. So although for now the overall weights seems to be a tad under ideal I would council waiting several years until after the flocks have been worked with and stabilized to see whether an adjustment needs to be done. I would not recommend tinker with the proposed SOP just yet--until we have sustained stability. For me the 'definitely revise' is more of a 'consider revising' in a couple of years if the weights don't come up on average. Accurate record keeping by breeders will be essential to see if they are trending toward the ideal or not!

And here there is a new line brought over to integrate in as well. Good to have the genetic diversity and from a winning line, too, but it will stir the genetic pot once again and it may take a bit longer to achieve the 'at least 50% of the birds breeding true to standard' needed to gain APA acceptance.

 

[CibolaChooks]

And here there is a new line brought over to integrate in as well. Good to have the genetic diversity and from a winning line, too, but it will stir the genetic pot once again and it may take a bit longer to achieve the 'at least 50% of the birds breeding true to standard' needed to gain APA acceptance.
[/quote]

Definatly mess things up. And only winning due to lack of competition. The last win her birds had " as far as i know " a male with a beard came in second to her male.all the cream birds everyone has posted would compete with that