Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Quote:
thats what I do, start at the base and add genes to the mix... but some times my mind works at a different pace and I cant very well make myself clear when trying to explain genetics, because somehow I think people are on the same page...

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
yest ig stands for inhibitor of gold.... but it does not only inhibit gold, it also inhibit pheomelanin expression, thats why ig is/was also found on Silver birds, because it will help turning a Silver bird with autosomal red(orange/yellow shoulders) into clear looking silvers...

 

[GaryDean26]

I was the APA judge and Gus Vinage was the ABA judge at the qualifying meet.. We understood the color, it was submitted to us by the Dutch Club and was approved by Jean Robocker. These online stories always pop up after years.........and are usually promoted by people that were not there. They make good stories...and that's all they are.

Walt

No offence intended. The words from Jean's article is below.

Quote:Jean Robocker http://www.dutchbantamsociety.net/cream-light-brown.html
I take this all with a grain of salt. She was ovioulsy trying to make a point that she didn't feel that the breed was where if could be in the US and that if people became complacent with where if was at it would never improove.

I guess one of me weaknesses is that I am always willing to listen to a good story.

 

[GaryDean26]

P.S. Fowlman01, I participated in the Napa Valley Ultra Ragnar Relay two weeks ago. My three legs of the race covered 29 miles and went through a half dozen cities in Sanoma County. I waved as I passed through. It was my first time back to wine country since the time I lived in Petaluma 12 years ago. I had forgot how much I miss that area.

 

[blackbirds13]

I appreciate the offer of translation help and all of the other duscussion going on about the breed. My personal leanings are to avoid going to far towards the colorless birds currently a fad in Great Britan, because fads don't last with time there is always a new fad. Thats why I agree with aiming more for the Pease and Punnett standard. I believe that the idea of learning more about how the Dutch manage to get an even cream ground color will be most helpful in our own efforts to achieve gorgeous birds of our own. Sorry for any typos only real computer access is on my phone til I can fix my computer.

I totally disagree with your assessment of the British Legbars. I think if you spoke with the current breeders they would be more inclined to see their efforts as more positively reinforcing their SOP and bringing forth a resurgence of a more correct Cream Legbar.
I have been breeding these birds for only 2 years and I would say longer than most since I was one of the earliest to obtain my birds and all my birds originated from Greenfire directly. A, B and 2013 lines. I wish folks would just breed the birds and see what they get before we start talking about some idealized version of what could have maybe been some self-defined historical version of what the bird could have maybe was supposed to look like.
To call what the brits are doing a fad is a tad insulting given the hard work and effort they are doing to bring it back from the mess it was mired in.
Everyone has their own idea of how Cream cream should be but I think I have some gorgeous birds of my own.... not perfect and not close to being perfect but I'm putting a lot of effort into what I am doing as is everyone else who is dedicated and currently breeding the birds here and where they originated in Great Britain.

 

[fowlman01]

No offence intended. The words from Jean's article is below.


I take this all with a grain of salt. She was ovioulsy trying to make a point that she didn't feel that the breed was where if could be in the US and that if people became complacent with where if was at it would never improove.

I guess one of me weaknesses is that I am always willing to listen to a good story.

No offense taken.......just trying to keep it real. Jean bless her heart knows Dutch chickens very well, and she was also there during the qualifying meet, so I don't know why nothing was said at the time. It is not unusual for well versed breed people to disagree on Standards. No one has tried to change the APA/ABA Standards for Dutch. Every breed has it's "story". The lesson here is that you want to get it right the first time. With the Dutch there was a lot of differences in interpretations of their Standard. Gus Vinhage could read the Dutch Standard but I don't think Jean could, but she had ideas of what she perceived the story to be. Because this is in English, there should not be that complication.

I wouldn't go by judging fads, but the British Standard does seem to describe these birds pretty well. The British don't follow their Standard on Orpingtons either, so you can't go by what wins. There is some fad judging here, but I don't see it as being that far off in what judges here pick as a rule. Just like any other skill.....not all judges are good judges....they can pass a test, but they can't apply that knowledge.

Sonoma County is one of the best places in the USA to raise chickens. I hope you had a good time when you passed through. If you were on Occidental Rd you probably went right by my place.

Walt

The body type is Leghorn, so there should be little problem with that part of it. The biggest problem I see so far with this thread is that most people want to match everyone's birds and that just is not going to happen . GGF has at least three versions of this bird.

 

[ohrealy]

Hi. Are there any Cream Legbar breeders in the UK. Im sure there are i just don,t know em

 

[LaBella]

Quote: Then should it not do the same on birds with a gold base?

 

[LaBella]

This site may have been shared before and I just missed it, I thought it was helpful because it shows both correct birds and incorrect.

https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery

I know this is an old post (almost a year ago), but the link illustrates some thoughts I have had.
Assuming you have a cream pair, and they are indeed both cream, there is absolutely no way for you to not get cream babies from them. Cream is a double recessive, for it to express you must have two copies, one from each parent. If both parents are cream, then they will both pass on a cream gene, making all of their babies cream.
What brings this to mind specifically is the first couple pictures of the hens with and without cream. I go back to my thought, if both of their parents are cream, how can they NOT be cream?
This is something that has been bothering me from the time I started studying this breed. I am going to say what is obvious. There are people that have bought pullets and cockerels that have turned out to be gold. If they are indeed gold and not cream, then they could not have been pure bred, because if they were, then there is no way for their birds to not have been cream.
Or there is something else going on.
Assuming the hens pictured that are not the correct color are from pure ig/ig breeding. Why are they not cream?

Going back to the posts that Gary just made about the dutch creams... I think it is possible that what we are seeing is not gold (when the birds in question come from two cream birds), but rather the results of some kind of modifier. I know there is going to be some head shaking (here she goes with her dogs again, lol), but bear with me. d/d is somewhat the canine equivalent to ig/ig. However, in a little of blue puppies (on black base), there is often a range of colors from dark blue black to silver. But they are all still d/d.
This is where it ties into that Gary said, and why I think that there may be some kind of modifiers that control the expression of ig. This is why the links to the dutch cream light browns say that it's not enough to have a check list and go, OK, cream, check.. but there has to be a selection of the color of the cream as well.
Either the birds that we started with (there is that we again, please forgive the presumptuousness) were cross bred, which is why there are gold birds, or there is something that is modifying the expression of IG.
To that, I would wonder if there is anyone here that has had cream birds produce gold colored birds. If not, then I'm sorry, I'm going to have to believe there is a cross somewhere up close. However if some one has had two creams produce something more gold than cream, then my thought is that there is some kind of modifier and that paying attention to that modifier is going to be very important to produce correctly cream colored birds, and if so, we know it can be dome, because the dutch have done it with their cream light browns.

 

[KPenley]

The boys I thought were cream ended up being gold still (I was going by hackles only, not saddle, wing secondaries etc...proven by the number of golden offspring), so I have not had any cream to cream matches yet. But I am finally seeing a couple of birds with what I think will grow out to cream in my second generation,

proving that Grey carries one copy, so I should be able to make some proper matches this upcoming year.

I do not know about the 2013 or Reese lines, but GFF lines A, B, and C produced many gold birds (due to one copy breeder birds being imported and bred, many gold birds were created by accident). We determined that it is mostly improper breeding that lead to the vast number of golden birds in the US. Breeders did not really know what they were looking for, and some were just out to make their money back, so the gold birds spread like wildfire. Now we know what we're looking for, including GFF, so hopefully more and more cream will be available in the upcoming years. It would be interesting to see how the modifiers influence everything.