Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[LaBella]

Keep in mind that chickens can LOOK like a certain color while they are in fact not carrying those color genes.......or at least in the way they physically appear. Chickens are judged on the way they look, not by what they are genetically. Chickens are not like other animals you may have bred.

Walt

Actually.. No. Chickens are exactly like one animal I have bred and shown. But don't forget that phenotype is based on genotype. An animals looks are based on their genes. Yes, you can get a "cream" looking bird without the ig gene, but this breed is based on cream.
If someone could take a "golden" legbar and win at a show, something is wrong somewhere.

The color is important, and for me the color is tied to the genes. To wit, I quote dretd
Quote: If we could know this, that would be very helpful for the breeders as they would know what shade to breed for, and not just put cream "on a check list" so to speak.

 

[dretd]

Quote: If we could know this, that would be very helpful for the breeders as they would know what shade to breed for, and not just put cream "on a check list" so to speak.

Walt sent me a PM and indicated he is a tad to busy to reply just now as it will require him to do quite a lot of thinking, but that he will post a reply in the near future.

Disclaimer: I am not valuing more or less color in Cream Legbars, just looking forward to acceptance process:
One thing to keep in mind is that judges are very experienced about many breeds, but are not clairvoyant or omniscient and it will be part of our job as we start showing this new breed Cream Legbars, to provide the SOP and also educate the judges about what the breed is supposed to look like. As we go through the acceptance process if many of the birds shown have the allowed chestnut, the judges will grow accustomed to seeing the chestnut. If the only breeders that show have roosters that are Silver-looking and no chestnut, then that is what the judges will get used to seeing. This early process will help to inform the judges about what this new-to-them breed is all about an will establish the 'norm' for the breed. It is up to us to help educate them.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I could take a GFF line of Legbar and introduce the Silver Gene thru Silver Duckwing Leghorns and would probably win shows and the judge wont know that instead of cream I had Silver.... but there is nothing wrong with that I was just following the SOP right?.... The SOP is based on looks, there are many ways to achieve the Cream look if you know your genetics...the SOP can be Cheat on... just take at some breeds in the UK or British isles, the breeders with most wins are breeders that keep two lines, the Pullet lines which are a separate line that follows the SOP to the letter and win best pullet, the males of the Pullet lines cant be shown as they dont meet the Cockerel SOP.. but they also have the Cockerel Line...... why do they keep two lines?? Simple to meet the SOP and to win Show Pricess. while this birds are not as productive as the Legbars was intended for and are just Show birds

 

[ChicKat]

Some of us would rather have only one pen that has correct males and females and if we keep other lines it would be just for genetic diversity.

What if, since the cream legbar looks silver, we were to recognize a crested blue-egg laying gold legbar?

In this genetics article
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf

"The cock on the other hand is a strikingly handsome bird. As text figure 1 shows he is barred all over though the general effect is definitely lighter and softer than a barred breed such as the Plymouth Rock. At the same time the pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of any recognized breed" Punnett 1940

The above is closer to the appearance that I want to breed, closer to the majority of birds seen in the USA etc. and avoids the appearance of just another barred bird. Because it is crested and doesn't lay white eggs, it isn't a gold legbar. I am thinking that there is a new breed here, that is equally deserving of recognition. It is unlike anything else...

 

[nicalandia]

Some of us would rather have only one pen that has correct males and females and if we keep other lines it would be just for genetic diversity.  

I was just pointing out that some people take the SOP to extreem and the Judges dont know any different and will award points to a pullet that meets the standard to the letter even if that means the sire of that pullet is different from the cockerel SOP..

 

[ChicKat]

I was just pointing out that some people take the SOP to extreem and the Judges dont know any different and will award points to a pullet that meets the standard to the letter even if that means the sire of that pullet is different from the cockerel SOP..

Yes, you are 100% correct. The judging must happen, of course, in the moment. It couldn't be anyother way.

It is amazing how astute the judges are....especially when I read (haven't been there in awhile -- kind of busy too) CSU. All they have to go by is what they see.

If a competitor were to fudge-factor a bird and manufacture a look-alike that didn't have the correct background, it probably wouldn't be sustainable. I hear what you are saying that some will go to any length to win. Merely, I'm saying - kind of less practical for the little guy who merely wants to raise a few pens of sustainable chooks.

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
The SOP is "cheated on" more often than one would think. A white Rock bantam won a 4000 bird show and did not have any Rock blood in it. It was a WyndotteXOrpington cross. Good breeders can do all kinds of things.

Walt

 

[nicalandia]

The SOP is "cheated on" more often than one would think. A white Rock bantam won a 4000 bird show and did not have any Rock blood in it. It was a WyndotteXOrpington cross. Good breeders can do all kinds of things.

Walt

Wow....

 

[fowlman01]

Actually.. No. Chickens are exactly like one animal I have bred and shown. But don't forget that phenotype is based on genotype. An animals looks are based on their genes. Yes, you can get a "cream" looking bird without the ig gene, but this breed is based on cream.
If someone could take a "golden" legbar and win at a show, something is wrong somewhere.

The color is important, and for me the color is tied to the genes. To wit, I quote dretd
If we could know this, that would be very helpful for the breeders as they would know what shade to breed for, and not just put cream "on a check list" so to speak.

I would be very interested in knowing what that one animal is. There is no doubt that the color is linked to the genes and from what I can see no one here knows whats in these birds genetically, so even with a Standard it will be a long struggle unless you find yourselves a real breeder.....not a geneticist, but a skilled breeder. There is a real difference between the two.

No one is going to win a US show with a Legbar.......at least not for several years.
After you folks decide on the color you will need to show and promote this breed with the judges so that the judges understand the color. This is what a few of the Dutch people have done for the last 10 years or so.

w.

 

[chicken pickin]

The breed standard is as follows:
Origin: British

Classification: Light

Egg Colour: Blue, Green or Olive

General Characteristics:

Male

Carriage : Very sprightly and alert, with no suggestion of stiltiness.

Type: Body wedge shaped, wide at the shoulders and narrowing slightly to root of tail. Back long, flat and sloping slightly to the tail. Breast prominent, and breast bone straight. Wings large, carried tightly and well tucked up. Tail moderately full at an angle of 45 degrees from the line of the back.

Head: Fine. Beak stout, point clear of the front of the comb. Eyes prominent. Comb single, perfectly straight and erect, large but not overgrown, deeply and evenly serrated (5 to 7 spikes broad at the base), extending well beyond back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from ‘thumb marks’ or side spikes. Face smooth. Ear-lobes well developed, pendent, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape. Wattles long and thin.

Neck: Long and profusely covered with feathers.

Legs and Feet: Legs moderately long. Shanks strong, round and free of feathers. Flat shins objectionable. Toes, four, long, straight and well spread.

Plumage: Of silky texture, free from coarse or excessive feather.

Handling: Firm with abundance of muscle.

Female

The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for the natural sexual differences, except that the comb may be erect or falling gracefully over either side of the face without obstructing the eyesight, and the tail should be carried closely and not at such a high angle.

Male: Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some whit feather permissible. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.

Female: Neck hackles cream, softly barred grey. Breast salmon, well defined in outline. Body silver grey, with rather indistinct broad soft barring. Wings, primaries grey-peppered; secondaries very faintly barred; coverts silver grey. Tail silver grey, faintly barred. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.

In both sexes: Beak yellow. Eyes orange or red. Comb, face, and wattles red. Ear-lobes pure opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good male. Legs and feet yellow.

Weights
Male 2.70-3.40kg (6-7lb)
Female 2-2.70kg (4-6lb)

Serious defects:
Male's comb twisted or falling over, Ear-lobes wholly red. Any white in face. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. Squirrel tail.

Disqualifications:
Side sprigs on comb. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast. Wry tail. Any bodily deformity.

Scale of points:
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10
100

I haven't read through this entire thread yet so I have only seen this draft of the SOP in the beginning of this thread, Is this the SOP we are following? Or is there an updated guideline that you all have somewhat agreed upon and put together. If so I would like to look it over if it could be reposted because from all the threads I have been reading it seems everyone is still all over the place with what the standard should be. Im just looking for a starting point to know what I am breeding towards.Im sorry if this has been asked a gazillion times.