Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[LaBella]

Quote:

The SOP is "cheated on" more often than one would think. A white Rock bantam won a 4000 bird show and did not have any Rock blood in it. It was a WyndotteXOrpington cross. Good breeders can do all kinds of things.

Walt

Quote:

Wow....

Wow is right.

I would be very interested in knowing what that one animal is.

Betta fish.
A cello can win cello class even if it's a red loss marble. Genetic grizzles have won Marble class, genetic marbles have won butterfly class. Most winning HMs are HMPK crosses, I have taken BOS with a HM that was a multi generation VT/HMPK cross, and BOS in TPK with a fish that was a HMPK/HM cross.
The geno type of the fish doesn't matter, all that matters is that the phenotype matches the class that the fish is entered into at the show. And because bettas are highly inbred in the show world with multi generational brother/sister spawnings, often buying a near perfect specimen from one breeder and breeding it with a different line will introduce factors that have been bred out of the parent lines, like irrids in red fish.
Oh, and the TPK that I won BOS with was from a red/black marble bred to a black/white marble, his spawn sister, and produced traditional "wild type" colored spawn, even though the line had been a colored line for multiple generations. I also got a very nice red loss marble from that pair that ribboned in both pastel class and cello class.
The genetics of the fish do not matter, all that matters is that the fish fits the class that the fish is placed in, and we even have a class for fish that do not fit, color wise, any current class, it's called the form and finnage class, and that is where I showed my orange dalmations since they would not fit any other class.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Here is the latest version of the SOP http://www.creamlegbarclub.com/30-draft-standard-of-perfection-as-of-2013

Cream Legbar DRAFT Standard of Perfection for the USA APA application.

SHAPE -- MALE

​

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, straight and upright, deeply and evenly serrated with six distinct points, extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from side spikes, thumb-marks or twists.
Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved.
Face: Smooth, skin fine in texture.
Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance.
Wattles: Moderately long, thin, uniform in size, well rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft.
Ear-lobes: Large, elongated oval, pendant, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.
Crest: Small, well back from the eyes with narrow feathers falling off the back of the head to below the blade of the comb.
Head: Medium size, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality.
Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers.
Back: Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail, long in length, flat, sloping slightly to the tail.
Saddle feathers—Abundant, long, and filling well in front of the tail.
Tail: Moderately full, carried at an angle of forty-five degrees above horizontal.
Main tail—feathers broad and overlapping.
Sickles—long and well curved.
Lesser Sickles and Coverts—long, of good width, nicely curved and abundant.
Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping.
Breast: Prominent, well-rounded, carried forward and upright.
Body and Fluff: Body moderately long, sloping to the tail, broad in front tapering slightly to the rear. Keel is of good length, following the line of the back. Feathers moderately long and close to the body.
Fluff—medium in length, moderately full.
Legs and Toes: Legs moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are medium length.
Shanks round, strong, and free from feathers.
Toes—four, long, straight, and well-spread.

SHAPE -- FEMALE​

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.
Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved.
Face: Smooth, skin fine in texture.
Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance.
Wattles: Medium in length, thin, uniform in size, well-rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft.
Ear-lobes: Medium, elongated oval, pendant, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.
Crest: Medium, affixed at the forefront of the skull on both sides of the base of the comb and running length of comb. Rising well in front so as not to obstruct the eyes, with feathers narrow and falling off the back of the head to below the blade of the comb.
Head: Medium size, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality.
Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers.
Back: Moderately broad at the shoulders, long, with an even slope to the tail. Feathers moderately broad and of sufficient length to carry well up to tail.
Tail: Moderately long, carried at an angle of thirty-five degrees above horizontal.
Main tail—feathers broad and overlapping.
Coverts—broad and abundant, extending well onto main tail.
Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping.
Breast: Prominent, well-rounded, carried forward and upright.
Body and Fluff: Body moderately long, sloping to the tail, broad in front tapering slightly to the rear. Keel is of good length, following the line of the back. Feathers moderately long and close to the body.
Fluff—medium in length, moderately full.
Legs and Toes: Legs moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are medium length. Shanks round, strong, and free from feathers.
Toes—four, long, straight, and well-spread.

COLOR -- MALE​

Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red.
Beak: Yellow.
Eyes: Reddish bay.
Ear-lobes: Enamel white.
Head: Plumage, cream and gray.
Crest: Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
Neck: Hackle—cream, sparsely barred with gray.
Shoulder—cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Front of neck—same as breast.
Wings: Fronts and Bows—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream.
Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.
Back: Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Saddle—cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream.
Tail: Main Tail—gray, evenly barred.
Sickle and Coverts—light gray, barred, some white feathers permissible.
Breast: Dark gray, evenly barred, well defined outline.
Body and Fluff: Silver-gray, indistinctly barred.
Legs and Toes: Yellow.
Under-Color of All Sections: Silver-gray.

COLOR -- FEMALE​

​

Comb, Face, and Wattles: Bright red.
Beak: Yellow.
Eyes: Reddish bay.
Ear-lobes: Enamel white.
Head: Plumage, cream and gray.
Crest: Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
Neck: Hackle—cream, softly barred gray.
Front of neck—salmon.
Wings: Fronts, Bows and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.
Primaries—gray, peppered.
Secondaries—gray, very faintly barred.
Back: Gray, softly barred.
Tail: Main Tail and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.
Breast: Salmon, well defined in outline.
Body and Fluff: Silver-gray, indistinctly barred.
Legs and Toes: Yellow.
Under-Color of All Sections: Silver-gray.
Eggs: Blue or Green.
ECONOMIC QUALITIES
Especially noted for the auto-sexing feature in offspring, and production of eggs. Color of skin, yellow; color of egg shell, blue or green.
DISQUALIFICATIONS
See General Disqualifications and Cutting for Defects.
STANDARD WEIGHTS
Cock…………………………7 lbs. Hens…………………………6 lbs.
Cockerel…………………..6 lbs. Pullet…………………………4 lbs.
More information can be found in the Cream Legbar Club's Clubhouse under publications where the past newsletters are archived. Look for the Vol 1 No 2 newsletter and go to page 5. Read the complete article written by Cream Legbar Club 2013 Vice President, Heather Barnes.

Revisions now under consideration (8/2013) include the recognition of a visible feather shaft since it would be subtracted for if not mentioned in USA competition and no one has yet seen a female that lacks this trait.

 

[chicken pickin]

Thank You!

 

[dretd]

The SOP is "cheated on" more often than one would think. A white Rock bantam won a 4000 bird show and did not have any Rock blood in it. It was a WyndotteXOrpington cross. Good breeders can do all kinds of things.

Walt

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. I don't like soreing horses even though it makes them show better and until recently was a-okay. There will always be folks that will game the system. It depends what your morals and ethics are. Are you in the sport to win at all costs regardless or are you in it for the challenge or beauty or whatever?

One of the criteria for gaining acceptance into the APA is that you need to have the Cream Legbars breed true for a number of years. Would this 'Rock' that won be able to breed true? If not then it is most certainly not in the spirit of the rules even if it passed muster with the judges. And it is not the judges fault or responsibility but rather that of the person that placed that bird in the show.

Out of curiosity, how was the news of the imposter taken? Amusement? Awe? Disdain? Was the reputation of the person that showed that 'Rock' diminished or enhanced by the win?

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
would you still be my friend if I showed a Silver Creasted Legbar as a Cream Creasted Legbar in a show? would that be concidered cheating?

 

[fowlman01]

The bird was an accident. It was culled after the show. This was an old time Rock breeder who had this bird in a group I was grading for him. I picked this pullet out right away and not knowing it's background I told him to show it and he did. I wasn't at the show but a year or so later he told me the story and added that"you ##$/&@ judges can't tell a cross bred chicken when you see one,6 judges picked that bird" He didn't do it for accolades, he just wanted to put one over on the judges.

W

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Wow is right.
Betta fish.

That is FASCINATING- thanks for posting about your experiences there!

 

[ChicKat]

The genetics of the fish do not matter, all that matters is that the fish fits the class that the fish is placed in, ....

So,, in a way, it is kind of like that with a chicken for that short period in the Poultry show when they are being judged. All that can be ascertained is what is immediately apparent. What else could it be?

The place that the importance of genetics would come in - is for the person raising the chickens, to know and verify what they have, what works and what doesn't etc. Isn't it kind of like a short-hand of identifying the traits?

LaBella - you got me thinking -- fish - from eggs, chickens - from eggs...
nicalandia - so the example put there by fowlman01 and by LaBella substantiate your point that a person could fudge-factor a look-alike chicken. But the look-alike wouldn't have all the breed traits that are desired - so what sense would it make to do it? Walt's associate maybe wanted to as he said put one over on the judges to show it was possible, but as Walt also said -- then the bird was culled.......

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
well if you are "Making" a CCL look a like that will infact be true to the SOP, and if you are going to all of that trouble, why wouldnt they have all of the "Copy from" Traits?.... I am not saying Go doit, BUT if you are going to do it, you may aswell make them as productive as the Real Deal, or at least as close as possible... I least I would do it. but I would not start from scratch if I had the chance to get my hands on GFF CCL stock even the bad ones(crocked combs, short tail angle) would put me ahead of the game for at least 5 years, and actually I could point out that I started with CCL blood line and I just introduced the Silver Duckwing Leghorn to add Tail angle and good color.. that way I would not be as Frown On if my Secret got out...!!!! LOL

 

[ChicKat]

well if you are "Making" a CCL look a like that will infact be true to the SOP, and if you are going to all of that trouble, why wouldnt they have all of the "Copy from" Traits?....

I am not saying Go doit, BUT if you are going to do it, you may aswell make them as productive as the Real Deal, or at least as close as possible... I least I would do it.


but I would not start from scratch if I had the chance to get my hands on GFF CCL stock even the bad ones(crocked combs, short tail angle) would put me ahead of the game for at least 5 years, and actually I could point out that I started with CCL blood line and I just introduced the Silver Duckwing Leghorn to add Tail angle and good color..

that way I would not be as Frown On if my Secret got out...!!!! LOL

yep, and as I understand it in the world of chicken raising, that would be perfectly OK because chicken breeders would outcross to include in their flocks the traits that they wanted.

So maybe it wouldn't be frowned on at all.

Even in our registered cattle, once the animal is 7/8 of registered...when bred to registered the offspring would be 15/16 considered pretty close and could be registered, but that would take 6-7 years if my memory is correct on that approach. It's one way to go. Most people go with purebred stock to start with.