If you're the one working on it, I think you get to choose.
(Also I think you have a compelling reason for why it should be light brown.)
Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection
- Thread starter redchicken9
- Start date
If you're the one working on it, I think you get to choose.
(Also I think you have a compelling reason for why it should be light brown.)
Quote:
the issue would be that Light Brown is an already known phonotype to discribe a wildtype bird(like CCL) but not affected by the Barring gene... Gold Creasted Legbar would be a more true to type name..
the issue would be that Light Brown is an already known phonotype to discribe a wildtype bird(like CCL) but not affected by the Barring gene... Gold Creasted Legbar would be a more true to type name..
Well if you want to use that argument, what about dark cornish and dark brahmas, silver pencilled hamburgs and silver pencilled rocks?
Evening folks!
Since I helped accelerate the discussion for the SOP on cream legbars with my post on the Legbar thread the other night, I thought I would provide an explanation of my position, concerns, and recommend a synergistic solution. I really have tried to give this a lot of thought.
My post on The Legbar Thread is: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/459044/the-legbar-thread/5700#post_12139999
Current population of "colored" cream legbar and "silvered cream legbar"
Based upon ongoing comments from the various cream legbar threads here on BYC and other communications, I speculate that the current population of colored cream legbars in the USA now are probably 90+% chestnut endowed in varying degrees. These beautiful birds look like variants of the following:
Likewise, based on these discussions and the hard work that folks have invested in the silvered cream legbar to try to achieve the following:
The above is Steen's cockerel.
If we accept for the moment that 90+% of the cream legbars in the USA are colored cream legbars, then the logical deduction is that the silvered cream legbar is really a minor variant of the predominant strain. Once you have made these deductions, then the question is begged why would the Cream Legbar Club and some individuals push so heavily in favor of a minor strain?
What are the apparent advantages for adopting the minor strain of "silvered cream legbar"?
The advantages as I see it for endorsing a minor strain are both hedonistic and economic.
From a hedonistic perspective:
From an economics perspective:
It is the economic perspective that I believe is the elephant in the room that no one talks about that will eventually become a driving issue.
From an economic perspective, if the silvered cream legbar is adopted by the APA then:
NOTE: For the record, I do have the pullet pictured above that would meet the draft SOP and a young cockerel who may be very close but needs to grow out to be more certain. So I could benefit from the new standard.
My concern
Based on my evaluations of the genetics discussions, I think our geneticists may eventually be proven correct and that the silvered cream legbar will be the correct color. While that will be a very satisfying outcome for some, it does not come close to addressing the real consequential issues it will create.
Once the silvered cream legbar receives APA certification of SOP, things will degenerate from there. My speculation is that it will follow the path that occurred with the ameraucana, as noted in the Ameraucana Club, perspectives, and chat threads. There will those who carry themselves as the true breeders of true cream legbars and everyone else has "easter egger" cream legbars, gold legbars, or mutt legbars. It will not be pretty. If you want a to get a taste of how ugly it can get, just cruise through "Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds"
The wonderful community that we have developed who have come to love the cream legbar and its variants, who work passionately for its improvement, and contribute so generously and gratiously may be lost. This truly would be the greatest loss.
This is the reason that I posted my position as follows:
Since I, too, am a member of the Cream Legbar Club and standard will require voting by the membership, I will place a marker now. I will never vote for a standard that endorses grayed out roosters. A hint of chestnut or wording to the effect that "some chestnut is acceptable" would, likewise, not be acceptable to me.
Recommended synergistic solution
I have received many positive comments and PMs after I made the above noted post on the The Legbar Thread as well as a few caustic ones. I have since had discussions with a number of folks and believe that an amenable solution can be achieved with some additional work.
As noted above, the colored cream legbar which shares every trait and characteristic with the silvered cream legbar except the silvered coloration variation. The colored cream legbar is truly the dominant strain in the USA. As such, every cream legbar breeder in the USA has them. Since there is no breed in the world that is called "gold crested legbar" (colored cream legbar) that lays blue-blue/green eggs, there is an opportunity here to establish the new breed with APA certification of its own SOP. This could easily follow the work already established for the cream legbar. Changes to the draft SOP to adapt for the gold crested legbar would mostly be editorial in nature. As far as showing goes, the population of potential breeders who could show the gold crested legbar would far exceed those that could show the cream legbar. Thus the path to obtaining the APA SOP for the gold crested legbar would seem to be a much easier path than for the cream legbar.
The achievement of an APA SOP for both the cream legbar and the gold crested legbar presents a significant opportunity for the Cream Legbar Club and its supporters to greatly expand both the scope of the club and demonstrate openness and inclusiveness. Would it not be better to take advantage of the resources, the good will of many, and maintain this wonderful community than to risk the loss/alienation of many who have a great appreciation for the colors in the proposed gold crested legbar?
I am in your service for the betterment of all and especially the birds that we love.
Since I helped accelerate the discussion for the SOP on cream legbars with my post on the Legbar thread the other night, I thought I would provide an explanation of my position, concerns, and recommend a synergistic solution. I really have tried to give this a lot of thought.
My post on The Legbar Thread is: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/459044/the-legbar-thread/5700#post_12139999
Current population of "colored" cream legbar and "silvered cream legbar"
Based upon ongoing comments from the various cream legbar threads here on BYC and other communications, I speculate that the current population of colored cream legbars in the USA now are probably 90+% chestnut endowed in varying degrees. These beautiful birds look like variants of the following:
Likewise, based on these discussions and the hard work that folks have invested in the silvered cream legbar to try to achieve the following:
The above is Steen's cockerel.
If we accept for the moment that 90+% of the cream legbars in the USA are colored cream legbars, then the logical deduction is that the silvered cream legbar is really a minor variant of the predominant strain. Once you have made these deductions, then the question is begged why would the Cream Legbar Club and some individuals push so heavily in favor of a minor strain?
What are the apparent advantages for adopting the minor strain of "silvered cream legbar"?
The advantages as I see it for endorsing a minor strain are both hedonistic and economic.
From a hedonistic perspective:
- The purists will be pleased. This includes our folks who have more than demonstrated competence in genetics who are also adept at driving the conversation toward what the cream legbars genetics original composition and how that manifests in the appearance of the resultant, proper bird.
- The anglophiles, too, will be pleased. Certainly, there is a contingent that only wants the birds to appear as the UK SOP requires.
From an economics perspective:
It is the economic perspective that I believe is the elephant in the room that no one talks about that will eventually become a driving issue.
From an economic perspective, if the silvered cream legbar is adopted by the APA then:
- The very few breeders with these birds stand to make a lot of money. Suddenly, they will become the only "true" purveyors of APA cream legbars in the country, possibly even circumventing Greenfire. You can imagine the prices of birds and hatching eggs from that point forward.
- Secondly, for those of us who do not posses the silvered cream legbars, then our time and money invested in this new passion will be for nought since we "really do not have true cream legbars". How demoralizing and devastating would that be for so many, many folks?!
NOTE: For the record, I do have the pullet pictured above that would meet the draft SOP and a young cockerel who may be very close but needs to grow out to be more certain. So I could benefit from the new standard.
My concern
Based on my evaluations of the genetics discussions, I think our geneticists may eventually be proven correct and that the silvered cream legbar will be the correct color. While that will be a very satisfying outcome for some, it does not come close to addressing the real consequential issues it will create.
Once the silvered cream legbar receives APA certification of SOP, things will degenerate from there. My speculation is that it will follow the path that occurred with the ameraucana, as noted in the Ameraucana Club, perspectives, and chat threads. There will those who carry themselves as the true breeders of true cream legbars and everyone else has "easter egger" cream legbars, gold legbars, or mutt legbars. It will not be pretty. If you want a to get a taste of how ugly it can get, just cruise through "Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds"
The wonderful community that we have developed who have come to love the cream legbar and its variants, who work passionately for its improvement, and contribute so generously and gratiously may be lost. This truly would be the greatest loss.
This is the reason that I posted my position as follows:
Since I, too, am a member of the Cream Legbar Club and standard will require voting by the membership, I will place a marker now. I will never vote for a standard that endorses grayed out roosters. A hint of chestnut or wording to the effect that "some chestnut is acceptable" would, likewise, not be acceptable to me.
Recommended synergistic solution
I have received many positive comments and PMs after I made the above noted post on the The Legbar Thread as well as a few caustic ones. I have since had discussions with a number of folks and believe that an amenable solution can be achieved with some additional work.
As noted above, the colored cream legbar which shares every trait and characteristic with the silvered cream legbar except the silvered coloration variation. The colored cream legbar is truly the dominant strain in the USA. As such, every cream legbar breeder in the USA has them. Since there is no breed in the world that is called "gold crested legbar" (colored cream legbar) that lays blue-blue/green eggs, there is an opportunity here to establish the new breed with APA certification of its own SOP. This could easily follow the work already established for the cream legbar. Changes to the draft SOP to adapt for the gold crested legbar would mostly be editorial in nature. As far as showing goes, the population of potential breeders who could show the gold crested legbar would far exceed those that could show the cream legbar. Thus the path to obtaining the APA SOP for the gold crested legbar would seem to be a much easier path than for the cream legbar.
The achievement of an APA SOP for both the cream legbar and the gold crested legbar presents a significant opportunity for the Cream Legbar Club and its supporters to greatly expand both the scope of the club and demonstrate openness and inclusiveness. Would it not be better to take advantage of the resources, the good will of many, and maintain this wonderful community than to risk the loss/alienation of many who have a great appreciation for the colors in the proposed gold crested legbar?
I am in your service for the betterment of all and especially the birds that we love.
Last edited:
Thanks Hapless- I can see you put a lot of thought into your post. I appreciate everyone's continued discussion- as has been said we want to do this RIGHT the first time around.
I do like your point that the more colorful birds are more likely their own variety, not Cream Legbars, but Gold Crested Legbars or Light Brown Legbars or whatever is chosen to name that variety. I personally still think the club should push for the acceptance of the actual Cream Legbar variety FIRST as bred by Punnet et. al- as has been pointed out, this path is made easier by the historical documentation we have and also the current standard in Great Britain. It is true a lot of birds won't meet the standard. But no bird perfectly meets any breed's standard.
The approval of a second color variety- with as much love as there is for the more flamboyant birds- will probably be very much sought after as well. I don't feel this other variety will be an "easier" path. You do not have the history to the coloring- just a bunch of people who like how they look- and even that is ALL OVER the place.
I do like your point that the more colorful birds are more likely their own variety, not Cream Legbars, but Gold Crested Legbars or Light Brown Legbars or whatever is chosen to name that variety. I personally still think the club should push for the acceptance of the actual Cream Legbar variety FIRST as bred by Punnet et. al- as has been pointed out, this path is made easier by the historical documentation we have and also the current standard in Great Britain. It is true a lot of birds won't meet the standard. But no bird perfectly meets any breed's standard.
The approval of a second color variety- with as much love as there is for the more flamboyant birds- will probably be very much sought after as well. I don't feel this other variety will be an "easier" path. You do not have the history to the coloring- just a bunch of people who like how they look- and even that is ALL OVER the place.
As Chairman of the APA Standard Committee I can tell you that it will be a lot easier to get these in the SOP if you use something very close to the British Standard. As far as the disfunction of some of the Ameraucana folks posting online.....I can't see this happening with the Legbars. The Ameraucana's has hatcheries turning out tens of thousands half breed imitations of Ameraucana's. I don't approve of the way they "educate" folks, but I see why they have to keep after it.
The British Legbar description has been in place for many years and should cover all the attributes of the Legbar. We here in the US are beginners with this breed...why should we know more than the British? The Committee has no problem with Standards that are different than the country of origins Standards, but in this case changing it does not make sense as it seems to properly describe the birds. The Committee will review for qualification any Standard submitted. There is a built in leeway in the description and color cuts are not DQ's in this case.. Qualifying any breed for the APA is not an easy thing, so pick a color and do it. Add the other colors after you get the type in the SOP. You need 5 people showing 50+ CL's in the qualifying meet. All 50 need to meet the general description of color and breed type. If one of the 50 is DQ'd, you don't pass......that is why you need to enter more than 50. The BC Marans folks had over a 100 and they didn't have 50 that passed, so acceptance at that meet was denied. Just giving you some qualifying info...and in these things there are always people who will be sad about the outcome.
Walt Leonard
Thanks Walt- we really appreciate your guidance and especially your PATIENCE!
"If we accept for the moment that 90+% of the cream legbars in the USA are colored cream legbars, then the logical deduction is that the silvered cream legbar is really a minor variant of the predominant strain. Once you have made these deductions, then the question is begged why would the Cream Legbar Club and some individuals push so heavily in favor of a minor strain?"
The logical deduction is not as you describe, necessarily; it is possible that some number of early US owners were in such a hurry to populate that they bred everything they had without reading the British Standard or researching what was commonly accepted as correct according to that standard - or - they actually selected those with more color in early matings and thus set forth the explosion in population of more colored birds by percentage.
In my opinion the Standard as written is in need only of minor tweaking. I do think it logical to add something to the effect minor shafting in females is permissible, but if it isn't in there, it isn't.
Correct color is important to the Standard, indeed, so we are able to select for it after we have selected for vigor, type, and fertility. Type - what makes this bird a Cream Legbar, includes crest, blue eggs, and autosexing, as Walt patiently reminds us. When you hatch chicks you can't sex at once, you risk losing the autosexing trait of the breed if you repeat that breeding or go forward with the get.
My position is not based on what I have, as I have only a young (4 months old) trio that are all undersized IMO and the male has some chestnut, but they do have other characteristics I like, and I also have a very young (4 weeks) pullet growing up with the broodies right now, no idea what she will look like in a few months' time.
The logical deduction is not as you describe, necessarily; it is possible that some number of early US owners were in such a hurry to populate that they bred everything they had without reading the British Standard or researching what was commonly accepted as correct according to that standard - or - they actually selected those with more color in early matings and thus set forth the explosion in population of more colored birds by percentage.
In my opinion the Standard as written is in need only of minor tweaking. I do think it logical to add something to the effect minor shafting in females is permissible, but if it isn't in there, it isn't.
Correct color is important to the Standard, indeed, so we are able to select for it after we have selected for vigor, type, and fertility. Type - what makes this bird a Cream Legbar, includes crest, blue eggs, and autosexing, as Walt patiently reminds us. When you hatch chicks you can't sex at once, you risk losing the autosexing trait of the breed if you repeat that breeding or go forward with the get.
My position is not based on what I have, as I have only a young (4 months old) trio that are all undersized IMO and the male has some chestnut, but they do have other characteristics I like, and I also have a very young (4 weeks) pullet growing up with the broodies right now, no idea what she will look like in a few months' time.
I enjoyed reading your post, reminded me a bit of grad school, but I am not sure that ill-informed or incorrect initial breeding should relegate the correct form of the bird to a "minor variant of the predominant strain" and there was indeed mention and discussion of the economic effect of achieving a cream colored bird as opposed to the gold when the Club and SOP was being put together. Part of my personal decision early on to go the cream route was based on the fact that folks will pay for a quality item and I thought if I follow the British SOP as best as I can even if it turns out different than the US adopted SOP there is always a market for the original English standard as provenance is of value. My thought process was not about making a killing but to maintain the marketability of my birds as I had both Cream and Gold. Gold would have been much easier to do but I just felt if there was a choice long term between an Americanized version of the Legbar and a version that more closely matched the British SOP, no matter what version was chosen for APA, the British styled bird would always maintain some degree of worth. There was initially and still seem to be more folks inclined to go with the Gold version that most have than the Cream version that is taking a bit more work to achieve and finesse. The decision to go with the British SOP was for me that it did describe the bird as Walt says and was backed up by historical texts.
Just to boast. I posted my boys on the Cream Legbars Breeders Facebook Group and got a nice compliment from Jill Rees which makes me very happy right now, especially given the crap year it could have turned out to be.
- Mar 3, 2012
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I agree with Blackbirds13 and many others
I am very new to Cream Legbars but did read a lot about them when I got my first rooster almost 8months ago and my 2 pullets a few weeks ago. I went into this looking completely to breed to the British standards and follow the color of cream not gold. My Rooster is a little too colorful and I know that and I am planning to breed away from that. Im sure it would be much easier to draft the SOP to fit all the "colorful" Cream Legbars here in the US but too me that doesn't make any sense. Stated earlier was that 90% of the CLs are gold in color here in the US that is probably true and people seem to want to cater to that because it brings in more numbers to get the birds shown to qualify. But what about that 10% that is at a very good starting point with their birds and have been breeding and culling hard to reach the British SOP? They should all of a sudden have their birds be worth nothing here to the US standards because not every one has them. Why make it easy because everyone has the wrong colored birds that Greenfire brought in. This is my first time trying to breed to the SOP for breeder/show quality birds. Id like the challenge of getting them there not the easy route because its easy.
I do like the look of colorful chickens and I think my CL rooster is very handsome. But I for one would like to try to breed them for the cream not the gold. But you can take my opinion with a grain of salt since I am new to this and I may not have made much sense.
I am very new to Cream Legbars but did read a lot about them when I got my first rooster almost 8months ago and my 2 pullets a few weeks ago. I went into this looking completely to breed to the British standards and follow the color of cream not gold. My Rooster is a little too colorful and I know that and I am planning to breed away from that. Im sure it would be much easier to draft the SOP to fit all the "colorful" Cream Legbars here in the US but too me that doesn't make any sense. Stated earlier was that 90% of the CLs are gold in color here in the US that is probably true and people seem to want to cater to that because it brings in more numbers to get the birds shown to qualify. But what about that 10% that is at a very good starting point with their birds and have been breeding and culling hard to reach the British SOP? They should all of a sudden have their birds be worth nothing here to the US standards because not every one has them. Why make it easy because everyone has the wrong colored birds that Greenfire brought in. This is my first time trying to breed to the SOP for breeder/show quality birds. Id like the challenge of getting them there not the easy route because its easy.
I do like the look of colorful chickens and I think my CL rooster is very handsome. But I for one would like to try to breed them for the cream not the gold. But you can take my opinion with a grain of salt since I am new to this and I may not have made much sense.
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