Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[HaplessRunner]

I agree with Blackbirds13 and many others

I am very new to Cream Legbars but did read a lot about them when I got my first rooster almost 8months ago and my 2 pullets a few weeks ago. I went into this looking completely to breed to the British standards and follow the color of cream not gold. My Rooster is a little too colorful and I know that and I am planning to breed away from that. Im sure it would be much easier to draft the SOP to fit all the "colorful" Cream Legbars here in the US but too me that doesn't make any sense. Stated earlier was that 90% of the CLs are gold in color here in the US that is probably true and people seem to want to cater to that because it brings in more numbers to get the birds shown to qualify. But what about that 10% that is at a very good starting point with their birds and have been breeding and culling hard to reach the British SOP? They should all of a sudden have their birds be worth nothing here to the US standards because not every one has them. Why make it easy because everyone has the wrong colored birds that Greenfire brought in. This is my first time trying to breed to the SOP for breeder/show quality birds. Id like the challenge of getting them there not the easy route because its easy.

I do like the look of colorful chickens and I think my CL rooster is very handsome. But I for one would like to try to breed them for the cream not the gold. But you can take my opinion with a grain of salt since I am new to this and I may not have made much sense.

I understand your points but I would add that there will always be a strong economic case for the silvered cream legbars because of the historical ties to the UK SOP and heritage. Additionally, because the silvered cream legbar is so difficult to obtain, there should always be a premium market for it. Hence, the gold crested legbar as I have proposed to move ahead simultaneously with the cream legbar should never be a serious economic competitor. As I noted earlier, I am in a decent position to capitalize on the silvered cream legbar due to the virtue of the stock that I was fortunate to hatch and find. My position can only be attributed to dumb luck rather than hard work but that is the luck of the draw. Like you, I have only been involved in cream legbars since the beginning of the year.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:
I started with dumb luck. My original pairs from October 2011 and February 2012 both carried one cream colored bird. I could have chosen to go with gold and in fact was encouraged to do so as my cream boy had a floppy comb and some folks on here posted the whole barn before the paint argument as what I should follow. I chose to go for color first and cull hard for type as I go forward. I joined a British poultry site and then decided why not create a painted barn? I'm not sure how anyone would have finances as a driving force. Yes it's nice to sell a few birds but it sure is not cost-effective, or has not been for me to date. I do it for the challenge and the reward of achievement. I look forward each spring to running through all the possible ideas I have in my head for breeding and the satisfaction that I feel each fall when I put them all in for the winter. Dumb luck may have played a part in the start, that's what I had, but it's the choices and the hard work you have to do after that will get you the strong economics you speak of if that is your desire, if they are there to be got. My flock is no where close to being where I'd like it to be and I had some issues to overcome this year but I feel it is better this fall than it was this Spring and whether folks will find my birds of value to purchase or not next year is not a leading decision point in my breeding plan.

 

[ChicKat]

Reading in my APA Standard of Perfection last night --

According to the SOP on my tablet.....The Hamburg breed accepted 6 varieties at one time. My SOP is quite old -- and this may have occurred in the early 1900's or 1800's book isn't at hand now.

Terminology-wise, I think that we are talking different Varieties of Legbars. As Walt also said - as he cautioned us not to go crazy - as he often does -- Any breed with the correct credentials would be considered by the committee. FMP has been working on a Rose Combed CL for very practical purposes, and we all admire and encourage his success. Other CL raisers have expressed an interest in obtaining a Rose Comb to combat the frost bitten combs that large single combed fowl experience. Many birds have both a single combed and a rose combed VARIETY.

Grant you, since the CL is so similar to the UK standard (although salmon in females from those light cockerels is still in the air I believe, and may require double matings) it is probably the most comfortable one for promotion.

I would agree with HaplessRunner that the CL club could embrace a rose comb and if it became known as a Brown Legbar that's fine, a Rich colored bird (got that term from last night;s SOP reading too) -- and the rich colored bird could be called the Crested Golden Legbar, that these Varieties of Legbar would enhance the breed (look at all the varieties of Leghorns for example - doesn't having something that everyone can relate to enhance the breed? I think it does.

If a person didn't wish to do test pairings - (what do you guys do with the birds that are just guinea pig birds?) and thought that challenges are great; but success in the final outcome (a silver-looking crested bird) is not the direction that they wish to go -- It's probably kind of important to know that now.

The purpose of the Legbar is to be an autosexing breed, that is utilitarian for people more than just a show-bird (meaning no offense to people who are interested in show birds only) -- None of the above varieties would leave the original purpose behind.

The rare breed assn. Has a description of the Gold Legbar - which is near the appearance of the bird that many people in the USA wish to raise:
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/

which incidentally includes language on shafting. The chick down in the Brit. SOP for Cream Legbar says 'matches down for gold' -

There are folks that seem to have both - Blackbirds13 mentioned golds and Cream, HaplessRunner has both gold and cream. I would think that it would in some ways protect the genetic diversity of the breed - and as KPenley wrote in the last club newsletter, Cream can be obtained from Gold birds -- Likewise I'm sure that Gold can be obtained from Cream birds.

Although no one wants to discuss coloration further -- it remains one of the elephants in the room -- one of the others identified by HaplessRunner.

Someone was kind enough to send me this link - which has some slight differences in history than the one we have written in the club:
http://www.britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedinfo/chicken_legbar.php

Point of the above link is that variety accpetance of CLs spanned a number of years. Brits with their milder climate may not need rose combs as much as they would be advantageous in parts of the USA.

Here is one more thing too--- I have seen on these threads someone say - -I love CLs but where I live it is cold - so I hate the big combs...etc. As the breed became better known - it could be that people would say -- love the bird, love the autosexing, hey, cool, blue eggs....etc. Oh LOOK there IS a rose comb variety--- I'm on board with that.

If the UK is the authority on Cream Legbars, I would wonder why, then is there still controversy over color going on over there. As far as us educating the judges, I'm not sure that unless there is a solid written SOP that makes it easy to decide something - - such as a CL with a rose comb or not -- it wouldn't be a judge educating thing at all.

To get to the point of 100 or more birds for a qualifying meet, daunting challenge, but if the birds were distributed throughout the USA and a household word and suited the needs of multiple individuals, I think all the varieties would have a better chance than if the interest group is narrowed.

ETA - oh yes and the Whites could also be a variety. Now I have stretched the applications on into beyond my lifetime -- and sponsored zillions of cream legbar relatives to get the 100+ quality birds for each variety.

ETA the next day --Above, I said that the standard I had read says 'down to match gold' however, although I had read that on an internet site, the true standard says 'down to match silver'.

ETA still later: This Pease quote is where I read that the Cream Legbar down matches the gold legbar down color:


"An interesting new autosexing variety is the Cream Legbar. The cream colour is indistinguishable to the eye from silver; but cream is, for reasons given on page 2, none the less a form of gold. It may be thought of as an extremely diluted gold. The Cream Legbar has a crest, which distinguishes it readily from the Silver Legbar. It has proved to be a prolific layer; its most striking peculiarity is that it lays blue eggs. The sex-distinction in the downs is the same as that in the Gold Legbar (Plate 11c)."
(Pease, Michael M.A., Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bulletin No. 38, Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding, Other Varieties, page 8)

 

[LaBella]

I think we are focusing so much on color that we are losing sight of the bird as a whole. All of the various attributes are important and weigh in to the total. Where one bird may fall behind in one area, it will be ahead in another.

A wiggle-room statement would be something like Breast: "a small amount of shafting should not penalize an otherwise well-marked hen".

Type as a whole is the number one quality that breeders should be aware of, I am in total agreement with that. That and blue eggs!! lolol. The body type, to me, and I could be erroneous in thinking this way, is the silhouette. The rest is the color fill. Breed type is just as important as color, if not more so. After all without breed type, an uncropped dobe may as well be a rottie.
It's the pieces of the puzzle that make up the picture breeders are building. The outline, the type, the silhouette is the edge of this puzzle. I build a puzzle from the outside in. Then the rest of it starts coming together. I see in my head what I think that the CLB looks like built on the old pictures and description as well as the current British SOP, the Americanized version and the pictures of the current birds here in the US and UK.

I think there is so much focus on color, because color is something that is readily distinguishable for most people. Also, in this breed, the cream color is one of the things that makes the breed intriguing. That is not to say that that is where there is the most focus on. But the other details have been brought up, and agreed on, for the most part. The only continuing item of dissent, and even then, there is not a real dissent, just a matter of degrees, is color.
Because there is multiple ideas of what the color of the British standard is describing, combined with what we can see in pictures and in the birds that are here being so varied, we're trying to nail down what we should have, what we should be breeding color wise.

I like your wiggle room statement.
I understood the concerns of shafting down pointing when all of them have shafting to some degree, which is why I agreed with dretd. But I do also understand the concerns with factors being bred for that then become a problem in other areas as you have stated. Perhaps when Walt has the time, he can chime in on the shafting and if it needs to be mentioned or if it can be ignored as it was in the British SOP.

nicalandia: That is indeed what was said, and the origins of the breed, and in one of these threads you and I discussed the fact that not only does ig inhibit the color of gold, but the barring gives yet another dilution to the gold. But cream is NOT silver. While the roos may indeed be quite light due to the double dose of the barring gene, the hens should still be visibly cream (and so distingushable from silver). And reading on the dutch cream light brown leghorn, there is no reason that the color cannot be bred to be truly cream and not indistinguishable from silver.
**Warning Dog example forthcoming**

The rottie is a black and tan breed, but the tan comes in various shades. The three most common colors they use to describe them are tan, gold and mahogany. Mahogany is the preferred shade. Rottie breeders have bred their dogs to intensify the color of the tan to where most of them are actually mahogany, and not tan though they are the same color genetically.
The parallel to that would be the dutch cream light brown. Of course the barring is going to further dilute an already diluted color in CLB. However, there is a difference in color from cream and silver (white), even if the difference is slight. After all, milk is white, yet I can tell the difference at a glance between skim milk, whole milk and heavy cream.
Isn't it the long term goal of breeders to improve upon what they are breeding? Would it not be an improvement to have a truly cream bird that would be distinguishable from the silver legbar, even were they not crested, even if it were by a degree of shading (think skim milk, whole milk, heavy cream)?

 

[ChicKat]

Here's the thing, I have no problem with folks doing some outcrossing to enhance traits then bringing the results back into the standard. I would't have a problem with you taking Light Brown Leghorns, Barred Rock, native Mapuche birds and even a hamburg or campine or whatever was used to grab the cream and recreating the Legbar from scratch and calling it a Cream Legbar.

I do however take issue with adding Silver as a substitute dilutor for Cream and here is why.

The Cream Legbar is genetically Cream. The standard calls for barred Cream and gray not Silver and gray. The name of the breed even has the color gene Cream in the name--its not Crested Legbar or Blue Egg Legbar, But the Cream Legbar. Needs to be Cream based or it is not a Cream Legbar even if it looks like a Cream Legbar. If you use Silver it is a Crested Silver Legbar and wouldn't meet standards for either bird.

Perhaps, when Pease said that the appearance is not distinguishable from a silver barred bird (except for a crest), he opened the door to the dilemma, and sealed the birds fate.

Some of us think that Cream is different from silver...but I think Pease kind of closed the door on that interpretation with his above comparison. Those looking for a visible difference may be looking in vain (if we are to take Pease at his (via written quote) word.

It isn't my belief that the 'end justifies the means' - so I wouldn't breed silver to win a contest...but if I wanted a silver-looking bird, then I would probably breed silver. Probably more results orientated that process orientated...

For those of us that thought that the cream legbar was cream-colored as in this breed of cream chicken:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cre...7IGwAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1849&bih=934&dpr=1 we were certainly thinking appearance and not genetics. Some of us have a fascination with genetics and some of us have a mild interest, probably some of us no interest.

I am beginning to think that we were not on target thinking cream legbar was cream (visually). Hence all the color discussion that some see as tiresome, never-the-less, it requires resolution.

One really neat outcome from this 'discovery' - which BTW horsedirt recognized in a post a year ago - is that perhaps we needn't ditch the beautiful golden tones that some of the roosters have in their hackles and saddles...but can retain them in a different variety of legbar.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I think he did...

 

[dretd]

Reading in my APA Standard of Perfection last night --

According to the SOP on my tablet.....The Hamburg breed accepted 6 varieties at one time. My SOP is quite old -- and this may have occurred in the early 1900's or 1800's book isn't at hand now.

Terminology-wise, I think that we are talking different Varieties of Legbars. As Walt also said - as he cautioned us not to go crazy - as he often does -- Any breed with the correct credentials would be considered by the committee. FMP has been working on a Rose Combed CL for very practical purposes, and we all admire and encourage his success. Other CL raisers have expressed an interest in obtaining a Rose Comb to combat the frost bitten combs that large single combed fowl experience. Many birds have both a single combed and a rose combed VARIETY.

....

There are folks that seem to have both - Blackbirds13 mentioned golds and Cream, HaplessRunner has both gold and cream. I would think that it would in some ways protect the genetic diversity of the breed - and as KPenley wrote in the last club newsletter, Cream can be obtained from Gold birds -- Likewise I'm sure that Gold can be obtained from Cream birds.

....
If the UK is the authority on Cream Legbars, I would wonder why, then is there still controversy over color going on over there. As far as us educating the judges, I'm not sure that unless there is a solid written SOP that makes it easy to decide something - - such as a CL with a rose comb or not -- it wouldn't be a judge educating thing at all.
...
To get to the point of 100 or more birds for a qualifying meet, daunting challenge, but if the birds were distributed throughout the USA and a household word and suited the needs of multiple individuals, I think all the varieties would have a better chance than if the interest group is narrowed.

Wow, I think you must have had insomnia last night. A lot of things to think about.

It would be interesting to find out if the APA Hamburg acceptance procedures were different back in the day.

A point of clarification, You has posited that the Gold coloration can be obtained from Cream. Only if the Cream bird is bred to a Gold bird (or there is a mutation). Two copies of the recessive gene ig are required to express cream/mask gold. So once you have a bird that is phenotypic Cream, it has to have 2 copies of the ig gene and all progeny will have 2 copies when bred to another cream bird and thus the progeny of the Cream line will always be ig/ig and look Cream.

I am actually a fan of the idea of a Rose Comb Variety as well as a more colorful variety gaining acceptance. It would let folks follow their passion with the breed. I thought that KPenley had said that trying to get more than one variety at one time was going to be hard. This topic had come up several months ago and I think the suggestion was that perhaps committees could be established to explore each variety to see if there is interest.

Could you please elaborate on your comment about the varieties having a better chance than if there was just one SOP getting looked at. I am a little confused about the point.

Could you also clarify the judge education statement? I have had several conversations with the APA judge Walt and he has repeatedly (and patiently) said that it will be up to the CL Club to inform the judges what our birds are all about. Are you saying that if the SOP stands as written that there is no room for interpretation? Or is that there is plenty of room for interpretation with the exception of notable features such as the rose comb?

Although I like the idea of more varieties for the Cream Legbar, just getting one through really is a daunting task and in my mind having 2 or 3 will only multiple the number of breeders needed to get the Cream Legbars passed. It would seem to me that starting with the one that is proposed, since there is historical record of the SOP in England and Cream Legbars were imported from England, would be logical and then adding other varieties at a later date when there is enough passion from the breeders to have a critical mass would follow.

 

[KPenley]

I thought that KPenley had said that trying to get more than one variety at one time was going to be hard.

It would seem to me that starting with the one that is proposed, since there is historical record of the SOP in England and Cream Legbars were imported from England, would be logical and then adding other varieties at a later date when there is enough passion from the breeders to have a critical mass would follow.

Yes, Walt advised that we start with the existing breed, which would be easier to admit into the APA, then to follow with varieties at a later date. My thinking has been very similar to your final thoughts.

It would be interesting though to discover what we can about the acceptance of the Hamburg.

 

[HaplessRunner]

Although I like the idea of more varieties for the Cream Legbar, just getting one through really is a daunting task and in my mind having 2 or 3 will only multiple the number of breeders needed to get the Cream Legbars passed. It would seem to me that starting with the one that is proposed, since there is historical record of the SOP in England and Cream Legbars were imported from England, would be logical and then adding other varieties at a later date when there is enough passion from the breeders to have a critical mass would follow.

To try to answer you question as to where we could find a sufficient number of breeders for the golden crested legbar, consider this. If realistically 90+% of the "cream legbars" in this country are really the golden crested legbars (colored cream legbars), then essentially every breeder in this country who believes they have cream legbars are already golden crested legbar breeders whether they realize it or not. Very few breeders would actually now qualify as cream legbar breeders given the character of their stock. Hence, the population of potential breeders to work with and show golden crested legbars is at least ten times the number of cream legbar breeders. LOL- by the way, almost all the cream legbar breeders also qualify as golden crested legbar breeders at this time as well.

Thus, my assertion that getting a sufficient number of breeders and numbers of qualified golden crested legbars is not nearly the Herculean task that getting the sufficient number of breeders and numbers of qualified cream legbars for presentation at a qualifying show or set of shows will be.

 

[normanack]

To try to answer you question as to where we could find a sufficient number of breeders for the golden crested legbar, consider this. If realistically 90+% of the "cream legbars" in this country are really the golden crested legbars (colored cream legbars), then essentially every breeder in this country who believes they have cream legbars are already golden crested legbar breeders whether they realize it or not. Very few breeders would actually now qualify as cream legbar breeders given the character of their stock. Hence, the population of potential breeders to work with and show golden crested legbars is at least ten times the number of cream legbar breeders. LOL- by the way, almost all the cream legbar breeders also qualify as golden crested legbar breeders at this time as well.

Thus, my assertion that getting a sufficient number of breeders and numbers of qualified golden crested legbars is not nearly the Herculean task that getting the sufficient number of breeders and numbers of qualified cream legbars for presentation at a qualifying show or set of shows will be.

Two thoughts:

1. Anyone know how long it took the last several accepted breeds to get high enough numbers for a successful qualifying meet?
2. Would you all agree that those of us with true cream Cream Legbars owe it to the breed to supply each of us with at least one properly-colored bird? (KIDDING!)