Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[fowlman01]

@ Kathy, I was just trying to show the wedge shape and width of shoulders in the Scartop pics above.

@ Nicalandia: Is the Leghorn pic from Holland a Brown Leghorn, and do they have the same type of SOP as ours? If so, I can give it a shot W.

it is probably a slightly different description in the Dutch, German or British Standard, but not enough difference to matter here. Give it a shot.

w.

 

[HaplessRunner]

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I think Walt was looking for an exercise in understanding type.

So from my point of view, this rooster has a shallow chest with a possible indentation from the curve to the legs. Also, I question the length of his back, I think it should be longer for an egg laying breed. Face and comb are appropriately red but the ear lobes do not hang vertically. The comb also appears to have a "thumbprint" - this is his better side. Tail seems good but has a broken top sickle feather. Legs have a nice yellow color. With respect to the hackles, there is black stripping present rather than a more appropriate tipping if tipping is appropriate.

So there is the input of a novice who has no knowledge of of the SOP or this breed's requirements.

 

[GaryDean26]

Does anyone know what the Brits mean by a wedge shaped body? I have never seen that description applied to a Leghorn body.


Walt

Here is a photo a UK breeder offered me when I asked about the wedge type body. The breeder said these birds were from another breeder and that they were culled and never bred. The breeders line of Legbars had good width through he tail if I remember correctly. If the wedge type body is not a good one, I think that lots of people will breed away from the SOP favoring thrifty birds and culling unthrifty birds.

 

[nicalandia]

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I gree that the Tail angle and other body traits may be the same, But the Bantam leghorn physiology is different from its large counterpart. its not a exact Mathematical scale down version of its large counterpart. just saying that. and the most logical Comparison would be the LF Leghorn,

 

[nicalandia]

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oh I see thats a good game indeed, it sharpens you eye... guys want to see more show type leghorns from Holland? here is the link http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=Leghorn

 

[fowlman01]

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I agree that a large Leghorn would be the best choice, but only because of the physical size being closer to the CL's. How do you know that it isn't mathematically proportioned the same? There have been two pics posted,. one of a bantam and one of a large fowl. Do you know which bird is the most correct to the Standard here in the US? Why? Maybe neither are correct. Until you can understand the written Standard, you will not be able to make progress with these birds......not you specifically...... I am talking about the group. The APA Standard says that they are the same and as long as we are using that work .....they have the same proportions. If you don't believe any of this that's up to you, but you have the page number for reference.

I know people don't like my way of teaching, but some will thank me for taking the time to help the group understand more. Talk to some of the people involved in the Marans APA acceptance. They hated me for a while too, but I helped them get their birds into the Standard and now we are all buds. I don't know everything, but I have been successfully breeding birds for 50 years and have handled tens of thousand of chickens......probably hundreds of thousands. Would you grant that I may have learned something along the way? That maybe.....just maybe I know more about chickens than you.....and I mean you nicalandia.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Here is a photo a UK breeder offered me when I asked about the wedge type body. The breeder said these birds were from another breeder and that they were culled and never bred. The breeders line of Legbars had good width through he tail if I remember correctly. If the wedge type body is not a good one, I think that lots of people will breed away from the SOP favoring thrifty birds and culling unthrifty birds.

I would cull that bird too. It just seems odd that they would use that description..(wedge)

w.

 

[fowlman01]

I think Walt was looking for an exercise in understanding type.

So from my point of view, this rooster has a shallow chest with a possible indentation from the curve to the legs. Also, I question the length of his back, I think it should be longer for an egg laying breed. Face and comb are appropriately red but the ear lobes do not hang vertically. The comb also appears to have a "thumbprint" - this is his better side. Tail seems good but has a broken top sickle feather. Legs have a nice yellow color. With respect to the hackles, there is black stripping present rather than a more appropriate tipping if tipping is appropriate.

So there is the input of a novice who has no knowledge of of the SOP or this breed's requirements.

Good! thanks! I will comment after a while. You have a very good eye for a novice....or anyone for that matter. If the length of back is a problem.....how would you breed for a longer back?

w.

 

[GaryDean26]

okay, why don't folks tell us the good and bad of this male.

W

1) This male have a straight line from the legs to the front of the breast. That is bad in my book. I am look for rounded breasts.
2) The breast does extend past the end of the beak. That is good in my book.
3) The tail is low. Good
4) The tail is long. Good
5) He has a short beak. Good
6) Eyes are set far back (not in the 1st 1/3 of the comb), they are high on the head (not a big distance between the comb and eyes), I would have to look from the top, to see if the eyes are wider than the skull, but they are defiantly not sunken. The head is flat on top not round. All good things in my book.
7) The serration on the comb are good. Not too thin, not too deep, not curving to the back.
8) I can't say anything about the neck. The 1920's illustration commissioned by the Brown Leghorn club show more curve and with the rounded breast appears longer, but I really haven't look at enough birds to know if this is just the pose at the second the shot was taken of if there is really any difference.
9) This male has more elongated ear loges that Fowlman01's Bantam white Leghorn. The Bantam Leghorn were nearly circular. I know different breeds specify different shapes and sizes for the ear lobes, but don't know which is preferred in this case. (The 1920" SC Light Brown Leghorn Illustration show longer ear lobes. I really don't know what the SOP requires here).


Okay it was a stretch on #8 and #9... I really am neutral on everything else that I can see from this profile. If this were my bird I would make selection based on the head, breast, and tail alone from this profile. I would also look at the width of the skull, the length of the back (I measure in fingers to see who is longer and who is shorter in a group), I would check the keel for length and straightness, I would check to see if the pelvic bones were straight, I would measure the distance between the pelvic bones (again in fingers), I would measure the depth from the back to the keel bone, the capacity as measured from the keel to the pelvic bone, I would gage the thighs with my hands for comparison, compare the width of the shanks, and compare the width of the body. Then I would move to color, and hope that I made a good decision when processing day comes.

 

[nicalandia]

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just the way nature works.
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Well yeah, you know a whole lot more than me buddy... I am just a genetic geek...LOL...