Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[CibolaChooks]

Good......lol

I understand that the Higher Power knows more than me......no problem understanding that.  Lots of people on this earth know more about birds than me too, but they aren't in this thread.

Barring is a very strong trait so it is not unusual to see it show up in place you don't want it to show up in. At this point there could be many reasons why it is showing up in your pullets. One of the most difficult things to do is to find out how your birds will react to certain breedings. This is going to be trail and error until you have a flock with fixed...or mostly fixed color traits. I would ask for help from a knowledgable British breeder that has a strong color breeding background. This is part of what makes chicken breeding different from other animals. They have colors that have to be perfectly expressed in specific areas. Again......Legbars have many challenges, so if we underestimate we will be in trouble. When I look at all the answers to my test I plan on also looking at this Leghorn type.....it could simply be that the show type Leghorn has gotten fancier over the years and the Legbar has not. By "fancier" I am talking about the tail furnishings. I don't think a Legbar was meant to have profuse tail feathering. As we are seeing, different countries have somewhat different looking Leghorns.

Walt

I've. Bred my rooster to a barred Cochin. I was told the cochin is extended black E/E so all the chicks should be black but half have come out wild type. So in learning about the cream Legbar do you have any idea what's in the genetics that would get wild type down when bred to an extended black hen

 

[fowlman01]

I've. Bred my rooster to a barred Cochin. I was told the cochin is extended black E/E so all the chicks should be black but half have come out wild type. So in learning about the cream Legbar do you have any idea what's in the genetics that would get wild type down when bred to an extended black hen

No I don't. The problem with chickens is that you can't predict accurate results until you know everything your birds are carrying genetically. You can certainly guess based on prior knowledge, but using a chicken color calculator is not going to be accurate either. I'm not sure I would have used a barred Cochin for any reason in a Legbar.....and it does not sound as if it came out as predicted. Now you are going to have the foot feathering to come back and haunt you in that particular breeding. Just keep accurate records of everything you do.

Walt

 

[CibolaChooks]

No I don't. The problem with chickens is that you can't predict accurate results until you know everything your birds are carrying genetically. You can certainly guess based on prior knowledge, but using a chicken color calculator is not going to be accurate either. I'm not sure I would have used a barred Cochin for any reason in a Legbar.....and it does not sound as if it came out as predicted. Now you are going to have the foot feathering to come back and haunt you in that particular breeding. Just keep accurate records of everything you do.

Walt

Im not using them in the ccl line. I wanted to make a new sex link. They turned out rather nice. Im goint to improve the foot and feathered shanks. I had no prediction on how they would come out. Someone else is using knowledge from different breeds to say they shouldn't have come out wild type. I really like them. But anyway thanks for your thoughts back to CCL

 

[fowlman01]

Im not using them in the ccl line. I wanted to make a new sex link. They turned out rather nice. Im goint to improve the foot and feathered shanks

OK.....you will learn some things doing that. You had me worried there for a minute. What do they look like?

w.

 

[CibolaChooks]

I posted pics on the creamlegbar hybrid page. Page 4 and on the last cpl pages. it's to hard to transfer pictures or I don't think I can on my phone I can send a PM later. All the pics are stored on my computer.up until the last few weeks the black ones looks like the Marans

 

[KPenley]

Special Announcement!!! For everyone who has been waiting with me for a response from the UK regarding #1 what the color cream means, and #2 their feelings regarding shafting, I have an update. I wrote two highly esteemed Judges from the PCGB, and one was kind enough to write back to me after conferring with 3 other Judges as well as other experts in auto sexing breeds.
Their response:

"1. The colour cream in the hackles det (perhaps he meant def as in definitely) is not white or silver but we do agree on the description by Michael Pease of an extremely diluted gold. This is where it appears to me like a very pale butter.



2. Shafting in the feathers is more visible in the female feathers especially in the back and shoulders."


So there we have it, cream = very pale butter. This will not change the SOP, but does give us a clearer picture to shoot for when imagining the final bird.

Shafting will definitely be added to the female "Back" section, and a more moderate version added to the "Breast". As with everything, these are up for discussion, but I think most will be pleased...at least a "smudge".

I will try to release Draft 2 by the end of the week, to include intro (minus the history) and shafting additions.

 

[dretd]

Special Announcement!!! For everyone who has been waiting with me for a response from the UK regarding #1 what the color cream means, and #2 their feelings regarding shafting, I have an update. I wrote two highly esteemed Judges from the PCGB, and one was kind enough to write back to me after conferring with 3 other Judges as well as other experts in auto sexing breeds.
Their response:

"1. The colour cream in the hackles det (perhaps he meant def as in definitely) is not white or silver but we do agree on the description by Michael Pease of an extremely diluted gold. This is where it appears to me like a very pale butter.



2. Shafting in the feathers is more visible in the female feathers especially in the back and shoulders."


So there we have it, cream = very pale butter. This will not change the SOP, but does give us a clearer picture to shoot for when imagining the final bird.

Shafting will definitely be added to the female "Back" section, and a more moderate version added to the "Breast". As with everything, these are up for discussion, but I think most will be pleased...at least a "smudge".

I will try to release Draft 2 by the end of the week, to include intro (minus the history) and shafting additions.

Good news on the cream=pale butter. I have 1 little pullet that has a pale color to the edges of her hackles and I was on the fence about her since some vigorously voiced that cream=white. I will pretend that she is Cream and verify this with test matings next spring.

I am saving a hackle feather from each pullet taped to an index card for reference in the future. Does anyone else have a strategy to document feather colors from one generation to the next?

As for the comments on the shafting, did the judge comment on how they judge the shafting, or just that it exists and where they see it? In other words, do they take off for the shafting or is it one of those 'everyone knows its there' and they only take off for it if it seems excessive? I am wondering if Walt will comment on how shafting is counted judged for in the US, ie are there deductions if there is minor shafting in the hens. It seems that if it is not deducted for if it minor then not mentioning it in the SOP is ok. If yes deductions, I would strongly suggest choosing words that indicate 'minor shafting won't penalize' vs 'shafting is ok', or the shafting will become pretty pronounced (a bad thing in my eye). This is my HQ Wellie with profound shafting. I would hate to see Cream Legabrs to go down this path:



Thank you Kpenley for taking the time to keep up with this. Hearing from judges is critical in understanding how the SOP is interpreted by the judges and is instrumental in getting Cream Legbars approved in the US!

 

[CibolaChooks]

Special Announcement!!! For everyone who has been waiting with me for a response from the UK regarding #1 what the color cream means, and #2 their feelings regarding shafting, I have an update. I wrote two highly esteemed Judges from the PCGB, and one was kind enough to write back to me after conferring with 3 other Judges as well as other experts in auto sexing breeds.
Their response:

"1. The colour cream in the hackles det (perhaps he meant def as in definitely) is not white or silver but we do agree on the description by Michael Pease of an extremely diluted gold. This is where it appears to me like a very pale butter.



2. Shafting in the feathers is more visible in the female feathers especially in the back and shoulders."


So there we have it, cream = very pale butter. This will not change the SOP, but does give us a clearer picture to shoot for when imagining the final bird.

Shafting will definitely be added to the female "Back" section, and a more moderate version added to the "Breast". As with everything, these are up for discussion, but I think most will be pleased...at least a "smudge".

I will try to release Draft 2 by the end of the week, to include intro (minus the history) and shafting additions.

nice I was a bit worried but that pullet i posted today looks more promising than i thought. hers is buttery on the edges of her hackles and she has the slight shafting in her back if anybody noticed also in the chest but lightly. I never noticed her shafting on her back until i took this pic. Kinda sad i could miss such a thing

 

[KPenley]

@ dretd: I think your feather keeping is great. I would add the OAC number as well in case the color fades with time. Regarding shafting, only the comment above was made. I think they purposefully left out the breast for the same reasons you mentioned. I told them about the problems and minor point deductions the Welsummers were experiencing. For me, A slight lightening of the shaft should not be cause for a defect deduction, but the goal should still be smooth color across the breast (since it was derived from the Leghorn).

@ Steen: She looks cream to me! It's kind of funny how we can miss something we see everyday...shafting, socks, etc.

 

[ChicKat]

Good work KPenley

also I think that keeping feathers is a good idea...even better when compared with OAC coloration.

DrEtd -- My individual feathers look a bit different on the card(s) than on the chicken, have you found this to be the case?