Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[blackbirds13]

Looks like you had a great trip horsedirt! I hope to go there one day!

Well M, I think the only thing I have right so far is the comb lol. One day we'll combine and create a great bird!

How about type? I just started reading through the Heritage Large Fowl thread, and it's making me take another look at the silhouettes I originally had in mind for my birds. The HLF thread and recent conversations about Leghorns/layer types have lead me to think that I need to lengthen my mental picture in both the neck and back (to promote a better shape for egg laying, while keeping the fuller body to meet weight requirements as well). I started on a basic shape painting to go in my pen today, for quick look comparisons, using the silhouettes on the CLC logo with just a tiny bit of tweaking for my personal goals. Has anyone else done something similar and want to share? I know a while back a few people were working on an outline overlay for photos of their birds.

I say we do a trade!
I agree. My oldest boy is huge compared to Macbeth and Macduff, he is bigger than both at 19 weeks. His back is longer, his comb has a curl in front but straight in the back, his tail angle is not bad BUT his saddle is not all gray barred. There is gray barring but it's mixed with the familiar ginger tone and his feet are nice and yellow but have darker marks on the scales. . I love his size however. I have 3 others I am looking at. 1 is a real keeper as he is gray . barred all over, not perfect but livable comb but his tail was peck off so not sure what it looks like, waiting for it to grow back out. Another is really nice but giant crest so double gene there but his comb (EEK) and number 3 carries his tail at 45 degrees below horizontal it would seem...plus I have a really nice recessive white with a decent comb I'd love to hold on to and experiment with my white girls... oh decisions decisions, decisions. I had emailed Tim Adkerson about the comb and crest thing and I feel less stressed about it given his response. Not that it's an easy fix but now I feel I have some knowledge to base my decisions on.

 

[WHmarans]

I wonder if this is too basic of a question to be asking here.. But I have a rooster with color that looks right to me and tail angle that looks good but not a perfectly straight comb. my concern with him is that he just looks too small. But he's only about 6 months old. At what age should he be about mature size and weight? At what age do you show birds?

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Looks like you had a great trip horsedirt! I hope to go there one day!

Well M, I think the only thing I have right so far is the comb lol. One day we'll combine and create a great bird!

How about type? I just started reading through the Heritage Large Fowl thread, and it's making me take another look at the silhouettes I originally had in mind for my birds. The HLF thread and recent conversations about Leghorns/layer types have lead me to think that I need to lengthen my mental picture in both the neck and back (to promote a better shape for egg laying, while keeping the fuller body to meet weight requirements as well). I started on a basic shape painting to go in my pen today, for quick look comparisons, using the silhouettes on the CLC logo with just a tiny bit of tweaking for my personal goals. Has anyone else done something simlar and want to share? I know a while back a few people were working on an outline overlay for photos of their birds.

That's a great plan! Let us know how the progress goes!

I wonder if this is too basic of a question to be asking here.. But I have a rooster with color that looks right to me and tail angle that looks good but not a perfectly straight comb. my concern with him is that he just looks too small. But he's only about 6 months old. At what age should he be about mature size and weight? At what age do you show birds?

Not too basic. That's a hard question. Most breeders will tell you type and size first, color last. I think that is true in most cases. Once you lose size it is really hard to get it back. Have you weighed him? You can use a fish scale with a bucket on it to get a good idea of his weight. Also, what kind of females do you have to pair with him? If you have proper weight females, it's worth doing some breeding and keep the highest weight offspring. If your females are small, too, I would try to find a bigger boy even if his color is not as good.

 

[WHmarans]

Well the boy I currently have with the girls is a lot bigger and Has a better comb he's also about 9 months old. Tail a little high but not squirrel tail. This weekend I'm going to make a point to weigh and take pictures. The girls seem fair size. Not Small. The big guy is more colorful. But from the pictures I've seen it looks like a pretty common coloration. I only have room for one roo so this will be a tough choice. I appreciate the info on the value of maintaining size first!

 

[LaBella]

I can understand when a topic at hand is not to your liking, and if you want to talk combs, and tail angles or beak length, by all means, do so, I am sure there are more than a number of people that would be happy to engage you in that conversation. But I'm sorry, as tedious as you may find the discussion of color, it's a valid topic of conversation, and I don't think anyone has the right to tell others that since they are tired of hearing about it, that other people should not talk about it. I mean are we not all adults here? If you don't like the topic, don't read it, and bring up your own topic that you do want to talk about.
I'm interested myself in hearing ideas in how to standardize comb point numbers. But since that's a minor issue for me it just has not been something I was too fussed about. Again, if you want that topic, bring it up, but don't be upset because people are talking about something you're tired of hearing about, or if they're not interested in talking about that, because they would rather talk about something you're tired of hearing about.
All in all, I think that one very good thing has come from this whole conversation, and you said it yourself, Blackbirds13... and that is cream is NOT white. That's settled for me, and I am happy with that. That was my main, number one concern, that cream legbards not be turned into silver crested legbars.

 

[ChicKat]

Well the boy I currently have with the girls is a lot bigger and Has a better comb he's also about 9 months old. Tail a little high but not squirrel tail. This weekend I'm going to make a point to weigh and take pictures. The girls seem fair size. Not Small. The big guy is more colorful. But from the pictures I've seen it looks like a pretty common coloration. I only have room for one roo so this will be a tough choice. I appreciate the info on the value of maintaining size first!

Looking forward to the pictures that you will post and info after you weigh them.!! And remind us of their ages too.

 

[ChicKat]

All in all, I think that one very good thing has come from this whole conversation, and you said it yourself, Blackbirds13... and that is cream is NOT white. That's settled for me, and I am happy with that. That was my main, number one concern, that cream legbards not be turned into silver crested legbars.

If the discussion hadn't continued we wouldn't have our new mantra Cream=Butter.... so it was very worthwhile IMO.

ETA - my concern was similar - if only silver had been 'to standard' then a lot of people interested in the breed and a lot of good birds would have been omitted.

 

[KPenley]

@LaBella How many points do your birds have? Hopefully an expert can weigh in here, but both parents contribute to that gene pool, so as long as you've got one with 6 points you should be gtg.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:

Very pale butter it said and if you email a few judges some may state that cream is just that cream... not butter.

I can understand when a topic at hand is not to your liking, and if you want to talk combs, and tail angles or beak length, by all means, do so, I am sure there are more than a number of people that would be happy to engage you in that conversation. But I'm sorry, as tedious as you may find the discussion of color, it's a valid topic of conversation, and I don't think anyone has the right to tell others that since they are tired of hearing about it, that other people should not talk about it. I mean are we not all adults here? If you don't like the topic, don't read it, and bring up your own topic that you do want to talk about.
I'm interested myself in hearing ideas in how to standardize comb point numbers. But since that's a minor issue for me it just has not been something I was too fussed about. Again, if you want that topic, bring it up, but don't be upset because people are talking about something you're tired of hearing about, or if they're not interested in talking about that, because they would rather talk about something you're tired of hearing about.
All in all, I think that one very good thing has come from this whole conversation, and you said it yourself, Blackbirds13... and that is cream is NOT white. That's settled for me, and I am happy with that. That was my main, number one concern, that cream legbards not be turned into silver crested legbars.

You have totally missed my point.
I am not upset but I am sorry that I have caused you to be. I have no emotional involvement in my conversations here. Posts may be irritating or tedious or funny or enlightening or sad but this is just the Internet. I have very few posts for my 3 years on BYC so I do pass on a lot of things on here...even when there is an attempt to be condescending.... but not always.... I did enjoy being on the debate team

I'm not sure where anyone is turning cream legbars into 'silver' birds or striving to do so, but it is just this that I find tedious. Lighter birds will occur but will that color will breed itself consistently over time and produce a palatable rooster and pullet. All I'm saying is that we could breed towards whatever version of cream you wanted (which is what I did despite the opinions of others because as you see the color is still up in the air) and hope to settle on something close to what I see in some of my girls now that seem to mirror some of the British birds and that gets a decent crit from the Brits when I ask. What the SOP settles on here will not determine my bird color - I am wanting a British styled bird if I can make one. When you breed these birds forward you are going to discover things but you first have to breed them. Much of this conversation on color is done through conjecture and what we think we see in others birds that we either like or don't like. How many folks have bred their cream pullets forward and can factually speak to what happens and what the color cream does look like to their own naked eye. Most of this is simply what folks think the color should be and not based on any knowledge of what it is. One person's very pale butter is another person's way too yellow and another's way too light and on this conjecture on what some believe the color should be we all have to re-hash the SOP. I love talking color.... if you've read my posts on these threads it has been a major focus for me for the last 2 years. I don't claim to be an expert, far from it and I don't think I know more than I know. Niclandia made that impossible for me about a year ago. It's not a bad conversation but what is the end point unless it moves into a how, why, what to do, what not to do conversation? That we will change the British SOP at the onset then breed a different bird than they have towards it? I am entitled to have that opinion and state thusly and you can also choose to skip over my post if it is not of interest to you.

I have one gold pullet that has the black breast issue Steen has mentioned prior. It is turning more Salmon but she is not cream or silver, definitely gold. She'll be culled and sent to the Marans pen. I don't know enough for I think it may have to do with melanizers.

 

[KPenley]

@ M: On the subject of melanizers, have you been culling all traces of the whitish "dots" or breeding them forwards? I would like to learn about them since I have multiple pullets displaying them prominently. Lucy's did disappear or blend in drastically after 1 year though...my answer for everything these days, I need to learn more.