Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[WHmarans]

GaryDean26...I don't know how to do the laughing faces but I am LOL!!

I don't understand these eggs..don't chickens need animal protein?!

 

[GaryDean26]

GaryDean26...I don't know how to do the laughing faces but I am LOL!!

I don't understand these eggs..don't chickens need animal protein?!

I am sure this is mostly a marketing scheme. You won't find any commercial feeds out there that still include animal proteins. they all have moved to peanut, soy and other plant proteins. So...that means that all of the commercial eggs are vegetarians eggs.

Here comes the twist. The big cities with high concentrations of animal rights activists than won't eat meat because they feel it is animal cruelty have people starting to keep 3-4 backyard hens so that they can get their eggs from hens that don't spend their whole life immobilized in a laying cage. These people have decided that since they don't eat meat that their hens shouldn't eat meet either. I am sure these Veggie eggs are a spin off of these groups trying elude to the customer that their eggs are somehow more healthy and humane because they are feed a vegetarian diet.

Yes, the irony is that chickens do better on a diet with animal proteins in it. I know breeders that supplement their commercial feed with fish meal or other animal proteins in their breeding pens (but NOT their laying flocks) because they get better hatchability from hen that are not on a plant protein diet. If they are not hatching the eggs, then they say they don't fork out the cash for the animal protein because it is expensive and laying hens will lay just fine on plant proteins.

It always makes me happy to hear of chicken that are capable of supplementing their own diet with animal proteins. They must be smart chooks.

 

[HaplessRunner]

I am sure this is mostly a marketing scheme. You won't find any commercial feeds out there that still include animal proteins. they all have moved to peanut, soy and other plant proteins. So...that means that all of the commercial eggs are vegetarians eggs.

Here comes the twist. The big cities with high concentrations of animal rights activists than won't eat meat because they feel it is animal cruelty have people starting to keep 3-4 backyard hens so that they can get their eggs from hens that don't spend their whole life immobilized in a laying cage. These people have decided that since they don't eat meat that their hens shouldn't eat meet either. I am sure these Veggie eggs are a spin off of these groups trying elude to the customer that their eggs are somehow more healthy and humane because they are feed a vegetarian diet.

Yes, the irony is that chickens do better on a diet with animal proteins in it. I know breeders that supplement their commercial feed with fish meal or other animal proteins in their breeding pens (but NOT their laying flocks) because they get better hatchability from hen that are not on a plant protein diet. If they are not hatching the eggs, then they say they don't fork out the cash for the animal protein because it is expensive and laying hens will lay just fine on plant proteins.

It always makes me happy to hear of chicken that are capable of supplementing their own diet with animal proteins. They must be smart chooks.

This movement and change in feed composition is a function of the "mad cow" disease that hammered the industry in the UK and also appeared in Canada years ago. The disease was a result of feed producers including animal products, including diseased animal products, in livestock feed. The reaction to this situation in the US, Canada, UK, and EU was to prohibit the inclusion of animal proteins in livestock feeds.

As far as marketing goes, I would bet that they vendors of "vegetarian" eggs are getting $5.00-$7.00/dozen. I live in the outskirts of northern Virginia. The prices for free range, pastured eggs at local farmers markets varies from $4.00 - $5.50/dozen. The closer you get to Washington DC the higher the prices. While I would like to sell my eggs for that amount, I do not have or want the volume to support travelling to get top dollar. So I sell to neighbors and local folks for 3.50/dozen and to a farm-to-table restaurant for $3.00/dozen. The important thing is to move the eggs such that 1) I do not face a huge number of eggs in my refrigerators and 2) the chickens essentially pay for their feed and maybe a little extra.

 

[WHmarans]

I was holding a pullet outside Elvis' pen and he was frustrated by her removal from his territory and he kept emphatically picking up this little rock and dropping it again in front of us. Trying to lure her back in but didn't have anything good around maybe? Poor Elvis.

Yes cstronks you will love them. They are somethin else.

 

[HaplessRunner]

As I reported the results of my first experience in showing chickens, I indicated that I took the time to discuss the draft SOP with the APA judge and obtained his comments on both the SOP and the chickens that I showed.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/509483/cream-legbars/3110#post_12381303

There were three APA judges at the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association show on November 23, 2013. The judge that evaluated my cream legbars and EOs and the draft SOPs was Paul Gilroy. He was very happy to provide some input. Several folks who I met at this show indicated that Paul was a well known leghorn judge.

The comments on the SOP were very minor. He reviewed the entire draft SOP several times and only made two comments.

1. He recommended that we identify information for the WING - Secondary Coverts. The current draft SOP does not have any information for the colors for this group of feathers. FYI, the draft SOP for EOs do specify a color for the secondary wing covert feathers.
2. Paul also recommended that we include an illustration of the "ideal type" that we want the CCLs to be compared against. This would be especially helpful for those who are not familiar with this breed.

As far as interest goes, I must have chatted with 20-30 different people who stopped to check out the CCLs. Some had heard of CCLs but most had not. There was quite a lot of interest in them. So much so that 5-6 folks gave me cards and addresses to contact them since they would be interested in obtaining chicks in the spring.

With respect to other breeders, the reactions were mixed. There were some who were interested and others who were not. There was one guy from the next county over who stopped by and wanted to get into an argument. He had apparently met a woman who lives not too far from me with CCLs. From what he said, it was apparent that this woman had done some homework and knew what she was talking about. This guy tried to make the case that CCLs were just mutt chickens, mixed breeds. I indicated to him while he could have made this case in the 1930-1940s but that is it was not true today. He was advised that CLs have been a recognized breed for decades in the UK.

All in all, it was a lot of work getting eleven chickens ready for my first show. But I absolutely enjoyed the show and the results. While the success that I had at this show I will gladly attribute to "dumb luck" especially with my ameraucanas, I like to think that I am starting to develop "an eye" for what looks good. I have always been a visual thinker and getting pictures in my mind of what things should look like has always come somewhat easily to me.

I also have a recommendation for the Cream Legbar Club to encourage showing of our CCLs.. That is to adopt a show point system similar to the Ameraucana Breeders Club (ABC). But I recommend that we be much more open minded about the scoring.

Even though I did well with my ameraucanas in this show the ABC has snubbed me on two points. One I am not a member of the club and they would not recognize my results after the fact. Since this show was not an ABC sanctioned show, even if I was an ABC member, I would not receive an scoring points for this show. The overall feeling I get from this is that they want to be exclusive and do not feel a need to encourage support of the breed since it is already well established. As Steen and I have noted previously, the ameraucana thread here on BYC is frequently a brutal place.

My feeling on scoring for show points is that if you have an APA meet that meets APA requirements then the results should be honored whether it was a "club sanctioned" meet or not. The reason for recommending a scoring system for showing is that it would:

1. Encourage folks to show their stock
2. Advertise the CCL breed - the more folks who desire these chickens, the more likely we will broaden the base and number of breeders
3. Build a base case to support the APA application - a long history of shows and educating the judges along the way cannot hurt!

Yes, there are disadvantages too but I think the overall evaluation will be a positive.

 

[KPenley]

Thank you for all of your valuable information Mr T. Rest assured that wings are next up for review since I wanted to re-examine secondaries in general anyway.

Is the point system you'r referring to similar to Kathy's that she just released for the CLC? Or is it a show only point system? Sounds interesting! Congratulations again on your great show results!

 

[HaplessRunner]

Thank you for all of your valuable information Mr T. Rest assured that wings are next up for review since I wanted to re-examine secondaries in general anyway.

Is the point system you'r referring to similar to Kathy's that she just released for the CLC? Or is it a show only point system? Sounds interesting! Congratulations again on your great show results!

I have not seen Kathy's point system yet. The point system I was referring to was the Ameraucana Breeders Club point system. In essence, it works like this: (Taken from the Ameraucana Breeders club site)


Exhibitor Point System

Supreme Grand Master Exhibitor: 10,000 points earned for all varieties added together.

Grand Master Exhibitor: 5,000 points earned for all varieties added together.

Master Exhibitor: 800 points earned for all varieties added together.

Junior Master Exhibitor: 100 points earned in all varieties added together before the youth’s 18thbirthday. These points are only collected on Ameraucana exhibited by juniors competing against other juniors (NOT Open Show competition).

Most recent calculations…
Points Arranged by Variety -

Large Fowl

Bantam
Points Arranged by Member -

Open

Junior

Calculation of points
Members must be in good standing to accumulate points. If a membership is lapsed then the points will be forfeited. Points will be recorded per variety. The varieties will be those which have been admitted into the APA or the ABA. When new varieties are accepted into the Standard, they will then be added to the recorded information. If a variety is not listed in the Standards, then points will be recorded under All Other Variety (AOV).

For Bantam Ameraucana:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Large Fowl Ameraucana:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Bantam Ameraucana in a Junior Show:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Large Fowl Ameraucana in a Junior Show:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.


Example of Calculation:

Iowa City, IA Meet Report November 24-25, 2007

Bantam:
Black- 2 shown
BB John Blehm (17 points earned because this bird beat all of the Ameraucana bantams. This bird does not earn BV and BB points, just the higher BB points.)
RV John Blehm (1 point earned)
Blue- 3 shown
BV Mike Gilbert (3 points earned)
RV Alnice Nichols (2 points earned)
Blue Wheaten – 2 shown
BV Michael Muenks (2 points earned)
RV Mike Gilbert (1 point earned)
Brown Red- 2 shown
BV Mike Gilbert (2 points earned)
RV Mike Gilbert (1 point earned)
Buff -3 shown
RB John Blehm (16 points earned because this bird beat all but one bird. This bird does not earn BV and RB points, just the higher RB points)
RV Mike Gilbert (2 points earned)
White- 4 shown
BV Alnice Nichols (4 points earned)
RV Alnice Nichols (3 points earned)
AOV -1 shown
BV Paul & Angela Smith- (1 point earned)


Obviously, there are no bantam cream legbars so that part can be scrubbed from consideration. We could also account for varieties such as the white sport cream legbar (or other name we choose to give it). This could be tailored to any form that we wish that would support our goals.

An example for me from the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association show:

• Five Cream legbars shown (5 points earned)
• RV for a cream legbar cockerel (4 points earned which is 5-1=4)
• BB for cream legbar pullet (5 points earned This bird does not earn BB & BV points, just the higher BB points)

• Total Points Earned for this Show: 14 Points

Something to consider.

 

[ChicKat]

Do you think the hens that produce these eggs eat crawling things? Whenever I see them I think of hens "cheating" on their diet by eating mice, and other animal proteins like the kids at the weight loss camps "cheating" by sneaking bread and other carbs when no one is looking.

I suppose it would be possible to guarantee vegetarian - factory farm LOL

 

[GaryDean26]

I have not seen Kathy's point system yet. The point system I was referring to was the Ameraucana Breeders Club point system. In essence, it works like this: (Taken from the Ameraucana Breeders club site)


Exhibitor Point System

Supreme Grand Master Exhibitor: 10,000 points earned for all varieties added together.

Grand Master Exhibitor: 5,000 points earned for all varieties added together.

Master Exhibitor: 800 points earned for all varieties added together.

Junior Master Exhibitor: 100 points earned in all varieties added together before the youth’s 18thbirthday. These points are only collected on Ameraucana exhibited by juniors competing against other juniors (NOT Open Show competition).

Most recent calculations…
Points Arranged by Variety -

Large Fowl

Bantam
Points Arranged by Member -

Open

Junior

Calculation of points
Members must be in good standing to accumulate points. If a membership is lapsed then the points will be forfeited. Points will be recorded per variety. The varieties will be those which have been admitted into the APA or the ABA. When new varieties are accepted into the Standard, they will then be added to the recorded information. If a variety is not listed in the Standards, then points will be recorded under All Other Variety (AOV).

For Bantam Ameraucana:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Large Fowl Ameraucana:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Bantam Ameraucana in a Junior Show:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

For Large Fowl Ameraucana in a Junior Show:

BV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety.
RV point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited within that variety less one.
BB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited.
RB point calculation will be 1 point for every Ameraucana exhibited less one.

Something to consider.

Wow...they really pit the exhibitors against each other in a race to the top with that system don't they? Exhibition becomes more of sport when you go by that system than a way to see how your flock compares with everyone else and a mean to get feed back on what areas your flock could be improved. No wonder they foster a culture of elitists with a reputation of being harsh and unwelcoming of those who are outside their click. I personally would rather be know to be reputable breeder that works hard to improve my flock (and help other do the same) than someone that is a Master Exhibitor under a cut throat point system. It seems that it would be easy to loose sight to the goal (better livestock) with a system like that in place.

 

[ChicKat]

Wow...they really pit the exhibitors against each other in a race to the top with that system don't they? Exhibition becomes more of sport when you go by that system than a way to see how your flock compares with everyone else and a mean to get feed back on what areas your flock could be improved. No wonder they foster a culture of elitists with a reputation of being harsh and unwelcoming of those who are outside their click. I personally would rather be know to be reputable breeder that works hard to improve my flock (and help other do the same) than someone that is a Master Exhibitor under a cut throat point system. It seems that it would be easy to loose sight to the goal (better livestock) with a system like that in place.

Hi guys,

We are talking some apples and some oranges here....

The competition to become a Master Breeder - or is it Master Exhibitor - has only in common with what the club is doing the accumulation of points for various activities.

In the Clubs competition - it is an accumulation of rewards for acts performed....kind of more like a video game. I will get an emailing out to the Club today or tomorrow - and I think that will help clarify. :O)


ETA - I don't see the points above as too hostile because it looks like it is a lot of points for each bird entered IF the person entering gets BB-- did I misunderstand? It would encourage someone to enter a lot of chickens IMO..... dunno.