Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

oops, sorry maybe that doesn't help at all.

oh its Always nice to read Dr. Ron Okimoto´s words at the coop..

 

[KPenley]

oops, sorry maybe that doesn't help at all.

no, it does. It seems like every time I'm looking for an answer it's back in those Auto-sexing Annuals or the Journal of Genetics.

 

[TheTropix]

The other night I found what I hoped might be important, went to copy it and MSN shut down on me.. I haven't been able to find the exact same text (by Punnett). I'm still looking, too! It was talking about feather color and either keeping or discarding certain ones.
One color reference to feather color he wrote like this, exactly: "silver-grey (brown)" (which may indicate that the silver-grey on our girls bodies is absolutely correct (taupe is silver-gray/brown). What I did find, which is very, very similar is this... The link is so you can verify word for word. I had to type it, couldn't copy/paste from the pdf.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/11/JG_11_235.pdf
(2nd page of PDF = page 236 in the document)
The action of the barring factor is also evident upon a brown basis, though not so clearly. Some years ago we made a cross between Plymouth Rock (hen) and Brown Leghorn (roo). The F1 roos were barred like the Rock, while the F1 females were full black or nearly so. In the F2 generation appeared more or less typical barreds and blacks of both sexes, together with browns of various kinds (including silver-greys), both barred and unbarred. In these barred browns the barring was not nearly so sharp as in the barreds belonging to the black class.

does that indicate that when Punnett said 'silver-grey', he may very well have meant a 'silvery-grey' brown aka taupe?? It certainly makes it a good argument for the possibility, and would explain why most EVERYBODY'S females body color falls into this category?

 

[KPenley]

The other night I found what I hoped might be important, went to copy it and MSN shut down on me.. I haven't been able to find the exact same text (by Punnett). I'm still looking, too! It was talking about feather color and either keeping or discarding certain ones.
One color reference to feather color he wrote like this, exactly: "silver-grey (brown)" (which may indicate that the silver-grey on our girls bodies is absolutely correct (taupe is silver-gray/brown). What I did find, which is very, very similar is this... The link is so you can verify word for word. I had to type it, couldn't copy/paste from the pdf.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/11/JG_11_235.pdf
(2nd page of PDF = page 236 in the document)
The action of the barring factor is also evident upon a brown basis, though not so clearly. Some years ago we made a cross between Plymouth Rock (hen) and Brown Leghorn (roo). The F1 roos were barred like the Rock, while the F1 females were full black or nearly so. In the F2 generation appeared more or less typical barreds and blacks of both sexes, together with browns of various kinds (including silver-greys), both barred and unbarred. In these barred browns the barring was not nearly so sharp as in the barreds belonging to the black class.

does that indicate that when Punnett said 'silver-grey', he may very well have meant a 'silvery-grey' brown aka taupe?? It certainly makes it a good argument for the possibility, and would explain why most EVERYBODY'S females body color falls into this category?

I'll look for the first article you described later this week if you don't find it first.

I actually find it more interesting that Punnett and Pease added a footnote regarding the "silver-greys" you described in your quote above. They were starting to discover that the silver came from the Plymouth Rock and that it seemed essential to the barring patterns they were seeing. Also they discovered that silver markings were showing up on gold based birds. (Punnett, R.C. and Pease, M.S., Journal of Genetics XI, Genetic Studies in Poultry, IV. On the Barred Plumage of Certain Breeds, page 236, footnote 1)

Again great article about barring by the creators of the Cream Legbar, but the references above only pertain to the F1 and F2 offspring from a Plymouth Barred Rock and a Brown Leghorn (only 2 of the seven breeds that went into the creation of the Cream Legbar)...so I do not feel safe assuming that silver-greys means taupe when every Cream Legbar standard I have found has described various form of gray. It is interesting though that silver-grays were separated from the blacks and barreds. Regarding the descriptions of the clarity of barring, I can't help but think that the silver-grays were combined with the barred browns in grouping based on the fact that their barring was muted and not clear.

In terms of "EVERYBODY's females"...I feel that I must share that my few cream girls have gray barred bodies with silver gray fluff, and my golden girls and those with Ar, have brownish tinged gray feathers with silver gray fluff. If there is any brown in the cream girls as pullets it is very cold (like a dark blue gray brown instead of red), and perhaps this is an interpretation thing but I find taupe warm.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I just dont understand how Silver-Grey can be confused with Brown... brown is anything but silver or grey

 

[enola]

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTropix

One color reference to feather color he wrote like this, exactly: "silver-grey (brown)" (which may indicate that the silver-grey on our girls bodies is absolutely correct (taupe is silver-gray/brown). ?

I just dont understand how Silver-Grey can be confused with Brown... brown is anything but silver or grey

I sure am glad someone else is having problems with Punnet's wording on colors..... We really do need understandable wording and a reliable color charting system for the American CCL. Maybe then I won't be so confused.

 

[WHmarans]

Quote:
I just dont understand how Silver-Grey can be confused with Brown... brown is anything but silver or grey

Agreed it doesn't make sense it's like saying "this chicken should be white .. In other words brown".

 

[GaryDean26]

(which may indicate that the silver-grey on our girls bodies is absolutely correct (taupe is silver-gray/brown). ?

The proof is in the pudding. If the girls are not producing 100% cream colored cockerels when mated to a Cream Colored cockerel, they are NOT correct. The Cream gene is going to dilute the gold plumage to an off white (cream) color as well as remove the brown color from the body making it grey.

I would suggest that another look be taken at the Cream Crele varieties, and Golden Barred varieties birds to note what colored their body is. Is it Brown or is it Grey? Also take a look at the Cream Birds Blackbird13 posted (or the show quality birds in the UK). Blackbird13 has shared photos of some of her cream hens that she has progeny tested and confirmed are producing 100% cream offspring. Are her proven Cream colored hens brown or grey?

What is difference between the color of those proven hens and the unproven ones we are trying to figure out? If the reference group are grey and the unproven ones we are trying to figure out are Taupe or Silverish Brownish Grey, then what is the difference genetically? Do the unproven ones lack the cream genes? Do they have red enhances that shouldn't be there? other?

 

[WHmarans]

The proof is in the pudding.  If the girls are not producing 100% cream colored cockerels when mated to a Cream Colored cockerel, they are NOT correct.  The Cream gene is going to dilute the gold plumage to an off white (cream) color as well as remove the brown color from the body making it grey. 

I would suggest that another look be taken at the Cream Crele varieties, and Golden Barred varieties birds to note what colored their body is. Is it Brown or is it Grey?  Also take a look at the Cream Birds Blackbird13 posted (or the show quality birds in the UK).  Blackbird13 has shared photos of some of her cream hens that she has progeny tested and confirmed are producing 100% cream offspring.  Are her proven Cream colored hens brown or grey?

What is difference between the color of those proven hens and the unproven ones we are trying to figure out?  If the reference group are grey and the unproven ones we are trying to figure out are Taupe or Silverish Brownish Grey, then what is the difference genetically?  Do the unproven ones lack the cream genes?  Do they have red enhances that shouldn't be there? other?

Love it! A very worthwhile set of questions. Can't wait till I get a chance to take a look.

 

[ChicKat]

In "the classroom in the Coop" a poster named KazJaps noted that the UK SOP for Cream Legbars is just the silver legbar standard with the word "cream" substituted for "silver". This cannot be correct, and the resulting confusion is what we are all dealing with now.

If you go to the rare breeds site where they show the SOP for Cream Legbar, Gold Legbar and Silver Legbar, you can see what he pointed out. Now read the SOP there and substitute Cream for Gold in the Gold Legbar standard, and you have a much better descriptiion of the Cream Legbar. It certainly solves the question of the taupe hens. Our CL hens are not silver gray...and even Jill's Lillian is taupe.

Fortunately for us in the USA this confusing silver-legbar sop didn't get farther than 2013 without us knowing about it. The cream Legbar must be based upon the gold legbar. Silver as dominant will cover up gold...and hence will cover up cream.

This may be the key to ending a lot of the confusion - and just think it was the hens that show the answer.

ETA Above, I mistakenly said the rare breeds...but the site with all three standards is:
www.autosexng-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/