Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Hi Stake--

Yea, another CL breeder.

regarding what I had said---somewhere I heard research that chickens can be "inbred" for something like 17 or 20-generations and not suffer ill effects. also within the last 6-months my views have shifted. What Rinda wrote reflects it. Definitely a father-daughter or mother-son pairing - is NOT frowned upon. In fact I am strategizing a mother-son pairing right now---just wondering when would be a good time to have the chicks hatch - since summer is upon us.

Remember this too, it required some brother-sister pairings way back in the day to establish some of the breeds maybe even CLs.

My big, big concern about brothers and sisters is my Isbars. According to GFF - at one time there were only 200 Isbars left. I believe that Isbars as a breed, for that reason have really close genetics. For me it really shows uniformity in the breed...they are very recognizable -- I can tell that the ones I have here are related. They are fabulous at laying lots of pretty green eggs that are a saturated green, and they have a great personality and demeanor... Signs of inbreeding IMO for Isbars are that they tend to be rather small, I think that chick hatches from some of my friends that have Isbars are not - real high percentages, like Legbars - and the chicks that do hatch (so I am told) have trouble standing...and some die and some need to be put down. My Isbar hens look so alike - and they almost move in sync...I think that they even lay their daily egg within a few hours of each other..One that is a bit smaller than her sisters, has a cross beak or almost a cross beak - I could probably take an emery board and fully correct her defect .With the limited knowledge I have of inbreeding, I would kind of attribute these things to genetic weakness. Sooo I have a gorgeous Isbar blue rooster..he is a knock-out - but I don't want to breed him to his sisters...but then someone told me today that there will be a poultry sale here in town this weekend...so maybe I can find him a new home....

Cream Legbars, on the other hand seem very diverse in appearance, and tightening up the genetics and thus appearance would probably help the breed overall.
What you want to do is find Good examples and replicate those good genetics -- that is where the skill will lie.



Cream Legbars are different, Greenfire farms brought genetic diversity over by importing multiple lines. -- The fact that you have one that is without a crest shows that you don't have identical genetics running around your place.

 

[GaryDean26]

so...if I get a trio....some may be brothers and sisters and they should not be bred...(from ChicKats post)...do breeders track the eggs as they hatch and ensure the brother sister thing doesn't happen (or am I naive)

Different breeding plans require different amounts of record keeping and different sizes of breeding groups. The smallest group is a pairing. If you pair mate, then you need to get a pedigree on every bird so that you can manage the amount of inbreeding. The largest groups can be several thousand birds. The largest groups will run 100's of cockerels in a single flock and no pedigree can be kept, but the size of the group keep it very diverse to where inbreeding isn't a concern. So....the smaller your breeding groups the greater the need for records, the larger the group the less the need for records.

Just to get you an idea of some of the mid sized flocks plans, a few pens of let say 6-8 hens (typically sisters) can be set up with unrelated cock (not a father, son, or bother, but an uncle, or cousin, is okay). You have to track which pen every chicks hatches from, but don't need to know who the mother of each bird is. You then return the best pullet to the same pen that they hatch from every year to build the flock. The best cockerels can be used in any pen that he didn't hatch from. That way you are avoiding close mating's, but still don't have to keep as many records as you would if pair mating.

You can ask the person your Cream Legbars are from how they breed their flock. It sounds like they just have one pen of Cream Legbars. People with just one pen typically source a new cockerel from another breeder ever few years to keep their flock from getting too inbred. If that is their plan then they probably don't have any records of who the offspring are from since it doesn't really matter who they are from since ALL the flock will be unrelated to the each new cockerel they source. Breeders that plan to keep a closed or semi-closed breeding group for more than about 3-4 generation are the ones that typically have records on their flock or else inbreeding will become a problem.

To improve your flock breeding records are important too. You need to know where the improvements are coming from and where the problems are coming from. Of course if you are bringing in a new cockerel every other year, then you don't have a lot of control over what is being passed on, so even if exhibition in the flock owners goal you probably won't see a lot of records unless they are breeding inside their own flock for many successive generations.

 

[stake]

All:

Thanks so much for the info...It is unusual for me to make multi- year plans yet if you want to breed a better chicken, it takes a couple of generations and banging a lot of genes together...and cherry picking the keepers...

 

[Localheronow]

I have a question which crest in right for a pullet four and a half months old. I have three take a look please I need help.




To me one has a BIG crest one none at all and a middle one which one is right all hatched same time same bunch.

 

[Chickencame1st]

I have a question which crest in right for a pullet four and a half months old. I have three take a look please I need help.




To me one has a BIG crest one none at all and a middle one which one is right all hatched same time same bunch.

Well most notable is nothing to do with crest but rather color--incredibly silver for the roo and appears to be minimal salmon on the hens. Original CL group with GFF did not all have crests--I cull the hens with no crests and would think most breed toward the full crest. But--beautiful birds. Thanks for the pics

 

[ChicKat]

REgarding your crest question -- For my taste it would be the one on the left in the top and second picture.... of your other two for me one has too small and the other too large--- (Like Goldilocks) - the one that is neat and close cut is 'just right' - A crest is a required attribute of this breed, and the smaller and neater crested hens will have males with more straight combs - since the crest pushes the comb and that's why a big crested rooster will have a crookeder comb...IMO.

:O)

 

[Localheronow]

REgarding your crest question -- For my taste it would be the one on the left in the top and second picture.... of your other two for me one has too small and the other too large--- (Like Goldilocks) - the one that is neat and close cut is 'just right' - A crest is a required attribute of this breed, and the smaller and neater crested hens will have males with more straight combs - since the crest pushes the comb and that's why a big crested rooster will have a crookeder comb...IMO.

:O)

You are so right about the roosters comb I have noticed the same thing. I have culled some that had very noticeable crests but floppy combs.

 

[KPenley]

REgarding your crest question -- For my taste it would be the one on the left in the top and second picture.... of your other two  for me one has too small and the other too large--- (Like Goldilocks) - the one that is neat and close cut is 'just right' - A crest is a required attribute of this breed, and the smaller and neater crested hens will have males with more straight combs - since the crest pushes the comb and that's why a big crested rooster will have a crookeder comb...IMO.

:O)

X2, Dr E just concluded a study that found the large+ sized combs tend to be on hens with a vaulted skull. This inevitably leads to crooked and wickle shaped combs in both sexes. Medium sized combs are apparent to the eye but can be bred with a flatter skull, producing straighter combs and healthier layers!

Thank for sharing your beautiful birds localheronow!

 

[ChicKat]

X2, Dr E just concluded a study that found the large+ sized combs tend to be on hens with a vaulted skull. This inevitably leads to crooked and wickle shaped combs in both sexes. Medium sized combs are apparent to the eye but can be bred with a flatter skull, producing straighter combs and healthier layers!

Thank for sharing your beautiful birds localheronow!

Wow- so you are telling me that some Cream Legbars have vaulted skulls, and some don't? And the really pouffey ones have vaults. That is interesting. (I guess just another example of a lot of work that needs to be done in the breed....seems it should be either one way or the other in the skull - but not both. INTERESTING.

I had never seen one with vaulted skull - here or up close and personal - but now I wonder if the one that I had that had the giant bouffant had a vaulted skull. -- should have saved her skeleton.

 

[GaryDean26]

What does a Vaulted Skull look like? Does anyone have more information on that definition? I have a cool mix that was created from Silkie, Cochin, Leghorn, and Breda (they look similar to a Burmese hen). They all have poofy rests (this is something that I am going to have to work on reducing), and I had some of them get severe wry neck. In researching I found that breeds with the vaulted skull are especially prone to wry neck. These was some indication somewhere that a vaulted skull had a hole in the top of it and that if the bird got peck by other hens if could cause damage to the nerve system (???? this is really unclear to me). Anyways the wry necked bird ended up being culled and I peel back the scalp to looked at the skull and I couldn't see anything out of the ordinary. No depressions. ridges, etc. What is my untrained eye missing? How do you sort a vaulted skull bird from a not vaulted skull bird?