Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Yep...I read the same book this Spring. I love how much information went into a single breed. The Plymouth Rock book was about 4 times a long, but I get that one all read.

Thought I had seen it before - but came across it tonight - (Like Ground Hog's Day - the movie - every day is brand new)----

The sequence of 8 picts above...the last one -- really looks more like a Sumatra or something.... and that just about covers the spectrum from 90-degrees to horizontal all in one breed's preferences. What's a person to do? Will the future of this chicken have tails below horizontal?

 

[GaryDean26]

ChicKat,

I think I am in about the same situation as you. I have a good sized cockerel, not Hulk size, but big all the same. He has a full/well rounded breast and looks pretty good in lots of areas I am looking for improvement in other birds. I am not sure that he is good enough to replace his dad but I having two cocks will give me a lot more options that I had with one. Dad's tail looks like 1909-1910 and his tail looks like 1893.

 

[ChicKat]

ChicKat,
........ I am not sure that he is good enough to replace his dad but I having to cocks will give me a lot more options that I had with one. Dad's tail looks like 1909-1910 and his tail looks like 1893.

LOL -- there is always something. I think I want the clock turned back...haha

The good thing too is something happened to 'dad' - then the boy will have a lot of the same genetics. Next year -- it can be all about getting better tail angles for me.

 

[GaryDean26]

I think I will be looking at tails this year too.

 

[dretd]

Here are the images. They are owned by the club. If you share them please include the club website for reference, www.creamlegbarclub.org. They are not perfect, but they are also not real- just one person's interpretation of the proposed SOP.

Found this book and thought it was so interesting because we have touched here and elsewhere on how the appearance of chickens has evolved.

https://archive.org/details/standardbredlegh00drev

In particular this illustration caught my eye:

seriously though, some of the illustrations in that book are excellent - and they really do reflect some nice looking 'types'.

Great reference. Looking at one 'created' ideal and comparing it to the Leghorn reference, what year would the ideal Legbar rooster match? Maybe 1905 or 1907(although the back is too U-shaped to match the Legbar SOP) ?

I think this is a really good thing to look at because I know some breeders are recommending using the Light Brown Leghorn as a match for type (I think more correctly, they would really need to leave the variety off and just say Leghorn) and when I look at the tails in this reference, the more recent Leghorn tail really is not a good match for the Legbars--of course more recent is over 100 years ago and there has been evolution in the Leghorn breed since then, no doubt

What do y'all think?

 

[ChicKat]

Great reference. Looking at one 'created' ideal and comparing it to the Leghorn reference, what year would the ideal Legbar rooster match? Maybe 1905 or 1907(although the back is too U-shaped to match the Legbar SOP) ?

I think this is a really good thing to look at because I know some breeders are recommending using the Light Brown Leghorn as a match for type (I think more correctly, they would really need to leave the variety off and just say Leghorn) and when I look at the tails in this reference, the more recent Leghorn tail really is not a good match for the Legbars--of course more recent is over 100 years ago and there has been evolution in the Leghorn breed since then, no doubt

What do y'all think?

Talking the tail-sets of chickens - according to the winners in the Leghorn category at the Ohio Nationals last year -- on this blog, a photo of a dark brown Leghorn rooster and a photo of a white leghorn hen....

http://www.pallensmith.com/blog/category/poultry

 

[GaryDean26]

...I know some breeders are recommending using the Light Brown Leghorn as a match for type....

What do y'all think?

Dretd,

I know that you have looked at the Single Combed Light Brown Leghorn as well as other Mediterranean breeds in the APA standards for comparisons to the Leghorn type. The longer that I look at APA standards for the Brown Leghorn the more differences I see between the two. The Brown Leghorn may be "compatible" as far a breeds go for out crossing, but to say that the APA Brown Leghorn Type and Legbar type is the same is wishful dreaming at best.

The APA Leghorn is a breed of curves. It had a U-shaped back with no straight lines, it has a very high set body, and it has no trace of heaviness. The Legbar on the other hand has a back that is downward sloping and free of curves, it has a lower set body that is deeper than that the Leghorns and with a standard weigh that is 25% greater than the Leghorn. That extra 25% weight changes the no trace of heaviness to a sturdier looking bird.

Lady McDuff (see below) was 25% Plymouth Rock 75% white Leghorn. She was breed by the Oregon Agricultural college. There report claims her as the first trap-nest verified 300 egg hen ever. Her daughters averaged 250 egg each. The White leghorn strain she was breed from average around 107 eggs and the Plymouth Rock stain average 85 eggs. this experiment was to show the benefits of out crossing, but there are a lot of photos in their report of the their breeders which I think make a great study of what some productive body type from Leghorns and Plymothrocks were and I think it is no coincident that Lady McDuff's shape is a better fit to the Legbar Type that a Leghorn with her downward sloping back, deeper body, the sturdier look that has the lower set to the body that doesn't show the thighs in the outline of the bird like a leghorn does. My thoughts are that the Legbar is its own breed made up of a lot of Leghorn blood, but NOT a leghorn.

 

[GaryDean26]

For comparison this is what the Leghorn Hens looked like at the Oregon Agricultural College. It lacks the curved back of the standard breed APA Leghorns, but shws the thighs in the outline of the bird, has a much more shallow body, and a much lighter look to the bird.

 

[dretd]

Quote: Hi GaryDean26! This is a great photo. You can really see the rock in her. For me, I think her bottom line is too curved (Rock-like) to match the CL description well, but other than that I think she looks more like I envision the Legbar hen than looking at a lot of the pictures I have seen of Leghorns. When I popped over to the Ohio show pictures ChicKat posted, the White Leghorn Hen they have pictured is much fuller bodied than what I have become accustomed to seeing--which are hatchery quality for the most part. So some of my perception may be tainted by the quality of the stock pictured.

I am not a fan of using the Leghorn as the type reference for the Legbar for the very reasons you have listed--most especially the comb, the back and the size. After looking at silhouettes of the various Mediterranean breeds, I came to the conclusion that you can still have a Med type without Rock influences and be of a very good weight and that with some differences, the Andalusian seemed to be a better reference for the Legbar, should I want to look at other breeds. http://blueandalusian.com/american-standard-perfection-blue-andalusians/ I think for me the biggest difference that is important between the Andalusian and the Legbar is the description of the legs, with the legs of the Legbar having a shorter thigh thus not looking as tall/stilty and the tail angle of the Andalusian is listed at 40 degrees above horizontal instead of the Legbar's 45 degrees.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks GaryDean26 -

one thing I am guilty of - is referring to a Legbar as a "Leghorn type" - because everyone is familiar with Leghorns.. so I kind of got lazy -- and just referenced Leghorns to save explaining about Lgbars...LOL



- The example that you showed of the highly productive hybrid Lady McDuff - really shows a far better type for Legbar as you point out. Very valuable example!!

Thanks!!