Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[Pat Barron]

Thanks for your kind observation. I will try to take better pics of these Roos. I currently am keeping 3 for going forward with breeding. Pic #6 is the male I used this year, the first pic is the male (hatched in April) that I sold yesterday. The other 2 are in pic #2 & #7. I guess in an effort to breed out much of the chestnut,I may have sacrificed the barring. Do you cull your females for gold necks? Trying to do that. Since we bought our first birds from Greenfire in 2011, these are generation 4 here. Hope to put together some definite pairs for next hatch in an effort to see what these birds will produce in the next generation.

 

[Flaming Chicken]

Thanks for your kind observation. I will try to take better pics of these Roos. I currently am keeping 3 for going forward with breeding. Pic #6 is the male I used this year, the first pic is the male (hatched in April) that I sold yesterday. The other 2 are in pic #2 & #7. I guess in an effort to breed out much of the chestnut,I may have sacrificed the barring. Do you cull your females for gold necks? Trying to do that. Since we bought our first birds from Greenfire in 2011, these are generation 4 here. Hope to put together some definite pairs for next hatch in an effort to see what these birds will produce in the next generation.

Hi Pat,
Welcome to Back Yard Chickens. You have some nice Cream Legbars. I too was focusing on light color and was surprised to get feedback to also look at barring. If you have pullets with cream hackles that you are happy with, then remove the gold hackled pullets. I had some pullets that probably were light gold that still bred gold colored roosters this year. They are going into the layer flock and I am only going forward with cream hens. Many of the birds coming from Greenfire are to gold still. You are lucky to have a nice selection of cream,

 

[chicken pickin]

Thanks for your kind observation. I will try to take better pics of these Roos. I currently am keeping 3 for going forward with breeding. Pic #6 is the male I used this year, the first pic is the male (hatched in April) that I sold yesterday. The other 2 are in pic #2 & #7. I guess in an effort to breed out much of the chestnut,I may have sacrificed the barring. Do you cull your females for gold necks? Trying to do that. Since we bought our first birds from Greenfire in 2011, these are generation 4 here. Hope to put together some definite pairs for next hatch in an effort to see what these birds will produce in the next generation.

You definitely do not want to sacrifice the barring as it is very important to the breed and the auto sexing trait. If you get muted barring you may end up with muted chicks and might possibly not be able to tell male from female. You do not want to lose this trait.

As for the gold birds, some people are still currently working on certain traits to build their flock and having gold birds still benefits them if they are using them to introduce other needed traits. While others do not need them, It is all about your own specific flock and what you need. Eventually yes at some point you want all gold birds removed completely from your flock so it is a Cream flock only generation after generation.

For my breeding program specifically yes I do cull gold birds male and female. Eliminating gold birds will also help eliminate the chestnut and ginger that is showing up. I currently cull all gold from my flock because I feel I have a strong enough cream flock to work with that I may not need any of my gold birds other traits to work with. Most folks that breed will tell you to build the barn and then paint it (work on type first and then color) because your breed needs to look the part structurally and then you can work on or adjust color later. For me personally I feel I started with a Strong starter trio and the foundation of my birds is sturdy so I chose to work on my color and finish building from there. If that makes sense. So for me I cull gold birds from my flock. I believe I have an all cream flock now but only time will tell, I still have a batch of chicks to raise up and I should have a better idea of where my flock is at.

If your not ready you do not need to cull yet. A suggestion though, you may benefit from using your one male that is in pics 2,3 and 5 as your main breeder next season and pair him to only your best cream pullets/hens look for traits you want to see move forward with your breeding like nice white earlobes smallish/straightish combs and the also the crest size you prefer most of us look for medium sized crests. Don't forget to look at body type and tail angle also. You don't need to have perfect birds, its almost like each bird is a puzzle piece and imagine your puzzle is broken and you need to find right the pieces to fit. Planned pairing a certain male with a female will create a piece to the puzzle that you may need later. In doing this you should get a few nice offspring and then you can pair the best sons back to mothers and best daughters back to the father. Again this is only a suggestion but it is the route I personally would go. Eventually your puzzle will be more clear as you put it together. I hope that puzzle analogy didn't seem strange lol.

 

[KPenley]

It is that time again and we need you! Do you have an interest in leadership, or just like to pitch in and help where you can? Do you love Cream Legbars? Then have we got a spot for you!
How do election nominations work?
Nominate yourself or someone perfect for one of the following positions between NOW
and SEPTEMBER 30th at Midnight EST! Fill out the nomination form on the CLCsite or Email the interested party's name and position to the Elections Chair-Kestlyn Penley ([email protected]). After interest and membership is confirmed, simple biographies will be created and sent out in October for member perusal. A link to an online voting poll will be sent to each member, and voting will occur the weekend of November 1-2. Winners will be announced at the 4th Quarter meeting on November 8, at 1PM EST and in the 4th Quarter Newsletter.
Elections will be held for the following positions, for the 2015-2016 two year session. Because the first four are Board Member positions, all nominees for them must be full members (it's not too late to update your membership!) of the Cream Legbar Club. Any dues paying or lifetime full member in good standing may be nominated for a position, including the person currently holding the position. Any member may run for Newsletter Editor. Official job descriptions can be found in the Cream Legbar Club handbook.
1. President - (currently, Curtis Hale) Presides over quarterly Board and Member meetings, calls special meetings when needed, signs legal documents adopted by the club, appoints committees to fulfill new duties, ensures that the constitution and by-laws are kept. Attends poultry shows and functions when possible to represent the Cream Legbar Club.
2. Secretary - (currently, Rinda Meyers) Keeps minutes for quarterly Board and Member
meetings, responsible for notifications and correspondence, maintains club history and records such as release forms for photos and articles for the website. Attends poultry shows and functions when possible to represent the Cream Legbar Club.
3. West Region Director (must reside in West region) - (currently, Debra Blake-thank you for stepping in to help finish out these last few months of the year Debra!)
Represents all members of the West Region at quarterly Board and Member meetings, coordinates a yearly regional activity, creates quarterly report about regional activities for the newsletter. Attends poultry shows and functions when possible to represent the Cream Legbar Club and invite new members to join.
4. South Region Director (must reside in South Region) - (currently, Kestlyn Penley)
Represents all members of the South Region at quarterly Board and Member meetings, coordinates a yearly regional activity, creates quarterly report about regional activities for the newsletter. Attends poultry shows and functions when possible to represent the Cream Legbar Club and invite new members to join.

Also, a volunteer (not elected) position is available. Seeking new Newsletter Editor (currently Anne Norman). Do you like to write and edit articles? Then we need you! The Newsletter Editor - (currently Anne Norman) creates the quarterly newsletter for the Cream Legbar Club, attends Board and Member meetings, and requests articles and updates based on Club events and interests.

Still interested in helping, but not interested in leadership? Please let any Board Member know! We would love to have your help with activities, committees, online projects, or articles! Thank you!

 

[Chickencame1st]

You know I would really learn a lot from 3 comparative photo journals. 1 each showing for the pulled and roo of Silver--Cream--Gold. I think my struggle mostly is between the cream and silver. The ideal SOP image I think is totally a different bird than a Cream Leg bar IMHO.

 

[KPenley]

You know I would really learn a lot from 3 comparative photo journals. 1 each showing for the pulled and roo of Silver--Cream--Gold. I think my struggle mostly is between the cream and silver. The ideal SOP image I think is totally a different bird than a Cream Leg bar IMHO.

This would be great. I have both cream and gold (undiluted) birds, but I don't know of anyone who has Silver Legbars in the US though. Many breeders have shared their great comparison pics, but here are a couple more of hen wings. I encourage everyone to study the standard and breed to it to the best of your understanding.

Gold hen

Gold pullet (probable carrier of 1 copy of cream, yet unproven)

Cream pullet

 

[GaryDean26]

This would be great. I have both cream and gold (undiluted) birds, but I don't know of anyone who has Silver Legbars in the US though. Many breeders have shared their great comparison pics, but here are a couple more of hen wings. I encourage everyone to study the standard and breed to it to the best of your understanding.

Gold hen

Gold pullet (probable carrier of 1 copy of cream, yet unproven)


Cream pullet

Nice wing photos. Do you have any opinions on which of these has the best wing. I notice there is a variation in the amount of peppering on the secondary's and a variation in the visibility of the barring on the Primaries. I don't see much of any peppering on the wing coverts, bow, or shoulder. An old breeding guild on the Brown Leghorn said for cockerel lines that hens with peppering all the way up to the back and as much red as possible would give the cleanest colors on the cockerels. I don't think that the peppering on the back was desirable in the Hen breeding lines though. I assume that for cream legbars we don't want red on the hens wings to breed cockerels since but was wondering if well peppered hens would produce better lacing on the hackels and saddle feathers. If anyone has opinions I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[ChicKat]

You know I would really learn a lot from 3 comparative photo journals. 1 each showing for the pulled and roo of Silver--Cream--Gold. I think my struggle mostly is between the cream and silver. The ideal SOP image I think is totally a different bird than a Cream Leg bar IMHO.

It can get really confusing and sometimes a person wonders what is what...

Although the term gets thrown around very loosely, there aren't any gold legbars or silver legbars in the USA...doesn't that make it even more confusing? Both gold and silver are separate varieties of Legbars - and although from the start we have been referring to Cream Legbars as a breed, they are only a variety of Legbars.

In Australia - there is work on both gold and silver although Welbars instead of Legbars.... -- and I can put a link in.
http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7960029&start=15

Here is a silver vs gold comparison from that thread:


Here is the appearance of a gold (not silver/not cream) hen:

to my eye, there is a very orange cast to the neck hackles and the wing and back feathers on a truly gold chicken.

in direct contrast here is a known silver pullet:

once again from the above thread..


Add to that some of us think that as Punnett said (paraphrased) 'Cream is a color like none previously seen in UK' (circa the 1920's or 30's from his writings)-- and others think that Cream should look identical to silver with the exception of a crest. I think both silver and gold were known colors when Punnet made his statement.

Meanwhile, Pease is staing that Cream and Silver are indistinguishable...... You are not alone in wondering. Up until about age 12-weeks, the cockerels are probably impossible to tell apart - but once they get their adult plumage, then it would be a definite differentation.

add to that the fact that silver genetics don't always look white - so when Pease made his 'identical to silver statement' - we don't know if he was referring to the cockerels at sorting age, or if he was referring to the way silver looked back in the 1940's .

I had a photo of silver pair from Nick's postings - but it isn't at hand now - I will come back and post it. in short, the silver pair looks what some would call gold.

Also... although there is huge over emphasis on coloration and I said I was going to let the cookie crumble how it will - I think it is very important for people raising the breed to know the maximum amount of coloration facts/examples - and your question although impossible to answer because we don't have Silver Legbars or Gold Legbars is very valuable to all of us.

One last thought - Pease stated that the chick down should look as gold -- and since many people don't know the appearance of a silver chick down - I do have a silver -duckwing chick pict - which is a wildtype similar to Legbars.

These are silver duckwings - no barring hence no head spots on males no autosexing but you can easily see the chipmunk stripes. genetics expert Sigrid Van Dort states that if the chipmunk stripe is white (silver) then -- it is a silver chick.


Interestingly, this bird is listed as a Cream Leghorn... not certain of the correctness and the source:

add barring to this coloration and it would be Cream Legbar type coloration -- but I always question does that mean it goes all the way to white-looking - which IMO it does not.

Now..back to your question. If someone sees a Cream Legbar that has more coloration in hackles than they prefer - they may tell the person that his legbar is 'gold' 'too gold' 'too colorful' or even 'genetically incorrect'. Since the cream gene that dilutes gold is recessive -- the bird is either gold in appearance or not gold...it is kind of that simple.

summary
1. There are no gold legbars, there are no silver legbars
2. Individuals often inaccurately will call a legbar that they don't prefer the coloration of gold (this may be the comparisons that you are seeking.
3. We should all be working on lots of other things in the breed...but it seems that color always gets the spotlight. :O)

What does gold in a chicken look like? Chicken talk "blue" chickens would use the gray paint tube, "silver" chickens would use the white paint tube, and "gold" chickens would use the brown paint tube.... Here is a 'gold duckwing cockerel'




coloration has become so contentious and a lot of inaccurate information is floating around. An excellent pullet or rooster shouldn't be discarded IMO just because it doesn't appear 'silver' - and we are coming to realize this. We should all preface what our opinion of a coloration is - by the term in my opinion..... Until a true blood or other DNA related test is obtained...the actual genetics of any Cream Legbar "he is lacking the cream gene" - is not truly an accurate statement...again IMO - I would want scientific proof.
:O)

 

[KPenley]

Actually there are Gold Legbars in the US Didn't April work on them before before GFF imported any Cream? Or am I remembering it wrong?

 

[KPenley]

Nice wing photos.  Do you have any opinions on which of these has the best wing.  I notice there is a variation in the amount of peppering on the secondary's and a variation in the visibility of the barring on the Primaries.   I don't see much of any peppering on the wing coverts, bow, or shoulder.  An old breeding guild on the Brown Leghorn said for cockerel lines that hens with peppering all the way up to the back and as much red as possible would give the cleanest colors on the cockerels.  I don't think that the peppering on the back was desirable in the Hen breeding lines though.  I assume that for cream legbars we don't want red on the hens wings to breed cockerels since but was wondering if well peppered hens would produce better lacing on the hackels and saddle feathers.  If anyone has opinions I would love to hear your thoughts.  

Wings: Fronts, Bows and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.
Primaries— gray, faintly barred, the outer web stippled with lighter gray and cream.
Secondaries— gray, very faintly barred.

I see pluses and minuses in all of them. Obviously I have lots of red in my flock still lol, but I like the coverts of the Gold looking pullet and the primaries and secondaries of the cream pullet. I'll have to go back through pictures to see about the relationship between stippling and clear barring.