Indeed there was someone on ebay selling Gold Legbars awhile back. They looked like a project to recreate the variety and seemed decent quality. Whomever it was got flamed pretty badly by some folks that said that there was no such thing A Gold Legbar any longer and she was trying to rip people off etc. I think that the seller didn't identify them as projects and that could have helped.Actually there are Gold Legbars in the USDidn't April work on them before before GFF imported any Cream? Or am I remembering it wrong?
Yes...I got my first "Legars" from April's before any of the GFF line legbars ever touched foot in Texas. They laid White/tint/cream colored egg (depending on where they were in the laying cycle), were not crested, and lacked the cream plumage.Actually there are Gold Legbars in the USDidn't April work on them before before GFF imported any Cream? Or am I remembering it wrong?
Quote: Good Morning ChicKat!
I agree with much of what you say. There are differences, which is perfectly fine! I most certainly agree that it is very confusing to many when we use the term 'gold' when we are referring to the suspected genetic status of a bird (Ig/ig or Ig/Ig) and forget to say that you are referring to that instead of Gold as in Variety. I think we are all guilty of not prefacing their thoughts with IMHO or in my flock. I think that we need to remind ourselves that photos can be inexact representations of reality for many reasons.
I think some breeders are pretty certain of what they have in their flock based on test breeding and seeing what the results in the offspring are and if they agree with the expected ratios if the are breeding suspected Ig/ig to ig/ig. That's what Punnett did; after all, Watson and Crick (and I like to add Franklin although she was overlooked in history) had not even theorized the Double Helix during this this time let alone having DNA testing available (which it is not for Cream yet). This of course makes an assumption that the breeder knows the parent stock's color status, which they may not.
I suspect that I have 2 crestless hens that are gold colored, not cream colored, and by that I mean Ig/ig or Ig/Ig. I may shorten that to gold girls but you are correct, that really is not very specific and can mean different things to different people. I have obtained what I believe are 2 'true' cream roosters and by that I mean ig/ig, to test breed my hens. So far I have hatch a relatively low number of chicks and I have an expectation that I should get 50% gold colored and 50% cream colored chicks if my hypothesis (Ig/ig status of hens) is correct.
Here is an example of the hen, Beatrix, who I think is Ig/ig and therefor her phenotype is gold, even though I consider her to be a Cream Legbar none the less, not 'a hybrid' nor 'not pure' nor 'a mutt', she is just not a good example of the breed and not to be shown (though she does have some good points in her favor!) :
Here is a photo of the ig/ig roosters:
The one on the left has much better coloring IMO (matches the SOP reasonably well) but both appear fairly washed out in the photo with a more creamy color than I can photograph, unfortunately.
The pullets I have hatched out have been pretty much dead on for 'cream' vs 'gold' ratios. Its pretty cumbersome to say Ig/ig and ig/ig so I end up shortening it to descriptions of the color which could be confusing for sure since we can't read each other's minds. 5 were gold colored ones and 4 were cream colored ones: The close up is one that looks more 'gold colored' than the others I am grouping in the 'looks cream' colored category. In the group photo, the three on the left look cream to my eye (not silver or white although it appears that way on camera) and the two on the right appear more golden colored. I could very well be wrong and there may be another reason the golden ones look more golden. Maybe there are other genetic influences (epistasis) that are making the gold appear more saturated even though it is diluted (rich cream?). This close-up girl (daughter of the above hen) carries very little red, and very little melanization so I do not think that it could be either of those factors influencing color. More test breeding to come after she matures! She's the one on the very right in the group photo.
The boys I think are much harder to tell. I could be totally wrong and have an open mind about my hypotheses, but since I have to start somewhere I am going with the hypothesis that gold barring in the wing triangle is a sign of Ig/ig status (aka 'golden' or 'gold'). Why have I decided to use this as my litmus test? 1) The standard doesn't allow for Chestnut in the secondaries like it does in so many other places so I think that red coloration is not present here and thus removes that variable from the equation. 2) In Punnett's Cream Paper (page 329: http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf ) , he talks about the gold vs cream in the secondaries of the males (using Brown Leghorns): " The difference in ground color between cream and gold offers a chance to distinguishing in a black-red between coloration due to gold and that due to chestnut. Such a test is the outer web of the secondaries which in the Brown Leghorn is of a bright gold-brown...(ed-references to color plates)..The bright brown outer web of the former (ed-brown leghorn) is replaced in the latter (ed-cream) by white. " So for me, I am using these two resources to help me parse Ig from ig phenotype. I may very well be wrong, but its my working hypothesis for now. I have no expectation anyone else does the same thing--this is my flock only and if someone has a bird with gold barring in the wing triangle and says they are Cream, I have no argument with their assessment since they are the one looking at their birds in person and interpreting the SOP.
Orange band is one I am perceiving is cream. He has white (more or less) in the outer web of his secondaries. He does have cream in his saddle and chestnut on his wings.
Black band has a barred buffy brownish color on the outer web. The color of his saddle is a much richer golden color. Because they are allowed chestnut there I don't think I can use brown/gold color in that location to decide Ig vs ig. The only place for me to look is the outer web of the secondaries. I am taking corresponding photos of the hacks to see if I can develop a better sense of ig status by looking at color there. There is very little difference between the two when you do a whole body shot except for a very slightly richer color in the hackles and the slightly brownish hue to the wing triangle in black band. The cockerel ratio is 50/50 white/buffy-brown in the wing bay. These boys are 14 weeks in these photos.
Could both of these guys be ig/ig and black just have other genes influencing the color to make it appear buff?--absolutely!
Would I have a problem with someone (even me) showing black band as a Cream Legbar?--absolutely not!
To me these are all Cream Legbars, even the crestless girls. None of the older ones I would consider show worthy, some flawed more than others, but they are Cream Legbars none-the-less.
I have taken to affectionately calling by pretty but possibly Ig/ig boys Creme Brulee Legbars becasue I think it suits their beautiful color and is a better way of describing the caramelized sugar color in the wing bay rather than to use the confusing term 'gold' cream legbar.
Actually there are Gold Legbars in the USDidn't April work on them before before GFF imported any Cream? Or am I remembering it wrong?
Yes...I got my first "Legars" from April's before any of the GFF line legbars ever touched foot in Texas. They laid White/tint/cream colored egg (depending on where they were in the laying cycle), were not crested, and lacked the cream plumage.
Below is the Gold Legbar pullet I had in my flock for a year. Our family really liked her which was why we got into the Cream Legbar variety.
Awesome analysis Doctor e.t.d. ----"Good Morning ChicKat!
............ looking at their birds in person and interpreting the SOP.
Orange band is one I am perceiving is cream. He has white (more or less) in the outer web of his secondaries. He does have cream in his saddle and chestnut on his wings.
Black band has a barred buffy brownish color on the outer web. The color of his saddle is a much richer golden color. Because they are allowed chestnut there I don't think I can use brown/gold color in that location to decide Ig vs ig. The only place for me to look is the outer web of the secondaries. I am taking corresponding photos of the hacks to see if I can develop a better sense of ig status by looking at color there. There is very little difference between the two when you do a whole body shot except for a very slightly richer color in the hackles and the slightly brownish hue to the wing triangle in black band. The cockerel ratio is 50/50 white/buffy-brown in the wing bay. These boys are 14 weeks in these photos.
Could both of these guys be ig/ig and black just have other genes influencing the color to make it appear buff?--absolutely!
Would I have a problem with someone (even me) showing black band as a Cream Legbar?--absolutely not!
To me these are all Cream Legbars, even the crestless girls. None of the older ones I would consider show worthy, some flawed more than others, but they are Cream Legbars none-the-less.
I have taken to affectionately calling by pretty but possibly Ig/ig boys Creme Brulee Legbars becasue I think it suits their beautiful color and is a better way of describing the caramelized sugar color in the wing bay rather than to use the confusing term 'gold' cream legbar.
