Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Please take this with a grain of salt. I am really new and still learning. If I were to judge soley based on type I would probably pick number 4. Number 1 would be my second pick.

I don't like number 1 wing carriage as well as number 4.

 

[fowlman01]

Please take this with a grain of salt. I am really new and still learning. If I were to judge soley based on type I would probably pick number 4. Number 1 would be my second pick.

I don't like number 1 wing carriage as well as number 4.

Good pick....it is the best in the pictures of the four. All need a lot of work though.

Walt

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Thanks Walt. All of mine need a lot of work too. So I am getting better at looking past a lot of things!

 

[dretd]

I've posted these on the other Legbar threads as well, but I want as much input on them as possible. Here are the roosters I have left. I'm trying to decide who to keep. What are everyone's honest opinions?

I am not one that likes to comment on photos to critique becasue both type and color can be off in a single still shot. I'm so very grateful when @fowlman01 comes to visit our thread as I learn so much from his expertise.

I did however, want to comment specifically on the earlobes: pink being genetics vs due to injury. If you look at your first cockerel, he is missing all of the points on his comb indicating that he did indeed suffer frostbite injury to at least his comb. His earlobes are more pink than his brother's pictured below him who coincidentally has more of his points on his comb left. So my guess is that at least a portion of the pink is due to nature. Do you have any photos of him before he polar vortex descended or was it too early in their lives for that to be of any use?

Here is an example of a rooster before and after my big freeze. He retained his points but they are blunted and he was the only rooster out of his cohort to do so--the rest are dubbed courtesy of Mother Nature. I am going to use him as my main flock breeder this summer becasue even though he is overly melanized, he has excellent Cream color--he glows cream especially if you compare him to the more white-looking males. Plus I figure if he can hold on to his points during a Polar Vortex, that is a good trait to pass along to future generations:

See how uniformly colored they were before?

Then the temps dropped from 70 to 0 in a day and a half. The ears are still white but look at the comb damage:

Now look at the ears after the winter pink is starting to show through--I am having a hard time getting a close-up of him, but the pink is definitely creeping in:

 

[tdhenson86]

Quote: I agree they need work. I lost my whole flock last year to raccoons. So, a friend gave me 4 of her hens and then I got all Rees birds. I now have 13 females and these males left. This will be the first generation, but I want to maximize the best traits. I am so thankful for experts like you! I'm really heavily relying on your advice! What are your specific critiques of each bird (pros and cons)? That would help me know what to look for in coloration and type. I would love to breed toward the best birds possible and rely heavily on the advice of others like you.

 

[tdhenson86]

I did however, want to comment specifically on the earlobes: pink being genetics vs due to injury. If you look at your first cockerel, he is missing all of the points on his comb indicating that he did indeed suffer frostbite injury to at least his comb. His earlobes are more pink than his brother's pictured below him who coincidentally has more of his points on his comb left. So my guess is that at least a portion of the pink is due to nature. Do you have any photos of him before he polar vortex descended or was it too early in their lives for that to be of any use?

Here is an example of a rooster before and after my big freeze. He retained his points but they are blunted and he was the only rooster out of his cohort to do so--the rest are dubbed courtesy of Mother Nature. I am going to use him as my main flock breeder this summer becasue even though he is overly melanized, he has excellent Cream color--he glows cream especially if you compare him to the more white-looking males. Plus I figure if he can hold on to his points during a Polar Vortex, that is a good trait to pass along to future generations:

See how uniformly colored they were before?

Then the temps dropped from 70 to 0 in a day and a half. The ears are still white but look at the comb damage:

Now look at the ears after the winter pink is starting to show through--I am having a hard time getting a close-up of him, but the pink is definitely creeping in:

Thanks so much for pictures and explanation! I'm a visual learner. So, pictures are great! Unfortunately, I got them really late August (they hatched August 24). We start dropping below freezing around the end of September/beginning of October. We got very cold and snow starting November 1 this year (which was early even for us) and it stayed pretty cold up until spring. So, I didn't have a chance to get pictures as they developed. It was a brutal winter with multiple sub-zero weeks. If it is nature, will the coloring come back as spring approaches or is the damage permanent? I will definitely remember to take more pictures of future generations as they develop.

 

[dretd]

Thanks so much for pictures and explanation! I'm a visual learner. So, pictures are great! Unfortunately, I got them really late August (they hatched August 24). We start dropping below freezing around the end of September/beginning of October. We got very cold and snow starting November 1 this year (which was early even for us) and it stayed pretty cold up until spring. So, I didn't have a chance to get pictures as they developed. It was a brutal winter with multiple sub-zero weeks. If it is nature, will the coloring come back as spring approaches or is the damage permanent? I will definitely remember to take more pictures of future generations as they develop.

You are welcome!

My experience is that once they are pink, it is like a scar and it will always be pink. So they will only get more pink over time, unfortunately.

Here is a before and after on a different roo who has seen two harsh winters. The first picture is during the first winter--not too bad a small amount of pink, he also doesn't have enamel white ears, more of a cream (allowed in the UK but we had to pick on for our standard and went with white) :

And yesterday:


He was pretty badly damaged by frostbite and lost most of his points and obviously sustained damage to his ears as well. As an example of why I dislike single pictures to judge--he appears far lighter here than in real life and although his tail is far too upright, he appears to have a squirrel tail in this photo and you have to mentally look beyond the sickles to judge the angle; it is not truly representative of the normally too-high 75 degree angle he carries.
.
Here is a picture of him during his molt in November before his sickles have grown in. The tail angle is measured off the tail feathers not the greater sickle angle and without the sickles there it actually makes it easier to see the angle better. Not great--too high but not squirrel-y either.


I recommend taking lots of pictures over time so that you can keep track and compare later on. I am doing that with photos of my down colors and patterns then comparing them to the adults to see if there is a correlation between the amount of cinnamon in the males and the amount of chestnut as an adult (I actually like the chestnut and am not trying to breed away from it--it is allowed and I think they are prettier and more distinctive with some chestnut) I am also trying to see if the size of the head spot in the males is an indication of the crispness of the barring as an adult. I would like to get more or better-defined barring in the males and an wondering if that might be correlated with the size or shape of the headspot in the chicks.

If you do that and band I recommend that you mark your photos with the color band or hand-write the number or color a card that you photograph with the chick. Once you take lots of photos, they can get jumbled up and will lose their usefulness. Here are photos of Orange band as a chick--I should have put a band next to him becasue you can barley make out the band color:


And as a teenager:

older still:


Note that he has very light colored down yet is one of the most melanized cockerels I have. I am not seeing a correlation between down color and adult plumage at this time.

 

[horsedirt]

Hello! I was quite deep into this breed a year or so ago, sold them all but 1 "C" line hen I still have that I purchased directly from Greenfire. I am about to jump back on the chicken wagon again. Despite all the crazy controversy and drama this breed has caused and having the honor of being flogged and shamed by Jill Rees herself. I LOVE THESE CHICKENS!! Thought about a couple other breeds to obsess over But, I keep coming back to these. I am a very small breeder. I did have some wonderful, perfectly laced, Polish that were taken by the local Bald Eagle. After much thought, I have found that the CLs are best suited for my environment.I love the eggs, auto sexing and the crest. So whats up with the SOP? Are we gold, butter, chestnut ? Hopefully we are being true Americans with some diplomacy, coming up with a version that all are pleased with. I saw the first Rees flock at Greenfire a couple years ago and they lacked color on my opinion but, that`s why everyone jumped all over me.LOL.
And find it quite interesting that the REES Legbars at Greenfire prices have dropped dramatically.

 

[chicken pickin]

So glad to see you may be joining us again. Cream Legbar are great though I know as do you since you stated it, the color controversy can be a bit much at times. At the moment the Ideal color of Cream is indeed butter. A warm buttery cream is what I am for. A recent thread was started for an "alternative more colorful Cream Legbar" and that threads purpose was to do a step by step discussion of the different parts of the Cream Legbar SOP. While doing so we sort of felt there is no need for an alternative at this time and though some CL are slightly more colorful and others are without color that both actually do fit the SOP and it is a matter of personal preference and how each individual interprets the SOP. Chestnut is permissible in 4 areas so any range of zero chestnut to lots of chestnut in those 4 areas are ok, that is personal preference and breeding choice and all fall into the SOP. Of course overly yellowy gold hackles are not ideal and don't fit into the SOP as well as things like rusty breast on females or brownish tinged bodies on females. Things like those do not fit the SOP but are things can be worked on within a CL breeding program.

I for one personally do not prefer the Rees line though I think some have some decent qualities. I have CL, mixed from the original lines and also I have a seperate pen with a trio of Rees and my Rees male is far from what I consider for the SOP in color and type. I hope I can better my Rees CL to what I feel is closer to SOP and to what my goals are for my CL flocks. I do agree many Rees males are lacking color and appear white rather than cream which is not ideal. To me many Rees males also seem late to mature and be smaller in size and to me have a sort of gamey type appearance. Though that is just my opinion.

I wish you luck finding your self some new CL to raise and hope you join in on all our many discussions on all the Legbar threads that are all quite active.

 

[ChicKat]

Hello! I was quite deep into this breed a year or so ago, sold them all but 1 "C" line hen I still have that I purchased directly from Greenfire. I am about to jump back on the chicken wagon again. Despite all the crazy controversy and drama this breed has caused and having the honor of being flogged and shamed by Jill Rees herself. I LOVE THESE CHICKENS!! Thought about a couple other breeds to obsess over But, I keep coming back to these. I am a very small breeder. I did have some wonderful, perfectly laced, Polish that were taken by the local Bald Eagle. After much thought, I have found that the CLs are best suited for my environment.I love the eggs, auto sexing and the crest. So whats up with the SOP? Are we gold, butter, chestnut ? Hopefully we are being true Americans with some diplomacy, coming up with a version that all are pleased with. I saw the first Rees flock at Greenfire a couple years ago and they lacked color on my opinion but, that`s why everyone jumped all over me.LOL.
And find it quite interesting that the REES Legbars at Greenfire prices have dropped dramatically.

Welcome back!!

One of the reasons that I'm so sorry that you and others got cyber-beat up about CL color is IMO - a LOT of that was based on misinformation and misunderstanding and misinterpretation. In some ways the UK partially redeemed themselves - and saved the breed by selecting this guy as last years winner at the top show:






There will probably always be color controversy - and other controversy - but the stellar thing about this cockerel is that he doesn't look like a BPR wanna be. He has a more distinct CL look IMO.

When I had raccoon devistation, I also divested of CLs -- but couldn't really stay away - so I sort of got in and out as well. Glad that the breed is what you will be working with.

Sadly GFF divested of all except the Rees line...so other sources are needed for the originals.... But they are becoming more available - and the breed as a whole is improving across the country IMO.....