Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[GaryDean26]

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for positing. Do you have any pictures of cockerels from this article?

I think these photos illustrate visual balance with the American Leghorn, but not so much with the English leghorn.
@fowlman01 would you consider commenting on that?

What is shown is all that was in the article. So I guess no photos of cockerels. Here are some images I pulled up a some time last year when I was looking at the differences between the APA and English Leghorn. David Scrivener was one of the contacts that the Cream Legbar Working Group got in touch with in 2012 to help with the Cream Legbar History. He was a licensed Poultry Judge in the UK and about the most well versed person alive on Poultry History. He really urged the Cream Legbar club to look at the difference between the English and the APA Leghorn and make sure we were writing the Legbar Standard with the English Leghorn in mind. When I learned that he passed away last year I started to following through on what he had said. Here are the Images.

First the English Leghorn. It is a breed of angles. It has a straight lined downward sloping back, a keel that follows the line of the back, and the hens have tails that come to a point. They also have have huge combs The cockerels have erect combs and the hens have the first point erect and the rest of the comb falling to either side.


Here is the APA Leghorn. It is a breed of curves. The straight lined downward sloping back is replaced by a curved back. The brest is well curved. The hens have a fanned tail. They tend to have a lot smaller combs that have the blade horizontal with the horizon rather than curving to follow the line of the neck like the English Leghorn. The weight standards are also about a pound lighter for the APA Leghorn than the English Leghorn.

 

[sol2go]

What is shown is all that was in the article. So I guess no photos of cockerels. Here are some images I pulled up a some time last year when I was looking at the differences between the APA and English Leghorn. David Scrivener was one of the contacts that the Cream Legbar Working Group got in touch with in 2012 to help with the Cream Legbar History. He was a licensed Poultry Judge in the UK and about the most well versed person alive on Poultry History. He really urged the Cream Legbar club to look at the difference between the English and the APA Leghorn and make sure we were writing the Legbar Standard with the English Leghorn in mind. When I learned that he passed away last year I started to following through on what he had said. Here are the Images.

First the English Leghorn. It is a breed of angles. It has a straight lined downward sloping back, a keel that follows the line of the back, and the hens have tails that come to a point. They also have have huge combs The cockerels have erect combs and the hens have the first point erect and the rest of the comb falling to either side.


Here is the APA Leghorn. It is a breed of curves. The straight lined downward sloping back is replaced by a curved back. The brest is well curved. The hens have a fanned tail. They tend to have a lot smaller combs that have the blade horizontal with the horizon rather than curving to follow the line of the neck like the English Leghorn. The weight standards are also about a pound lighter for the APA Leghorn than the English Leghorn.

The "angles" shown in the illustration for the English Leghorn, look more like my experience with the CL than the photo of the English Leghorn does.

I have a new batch of cockerels that matches the back and tail of the English Leghorn really well, but tend to be a little fuller in the chest as depicted in the American Leghorn.

I have hens with both types of tails, but I haven't really had a cockerel or hen with the swooping back of the American Leghorns as depicted in the illustration.

Maybe the English Leghorn hen was just standing at an odd angle in the photo? She also appeared to have fuller under fluff than what has been recommended?

 

[GaryDean26]

The "angles" shown in the illustration for the English Leghorn, look more like my experience with the CL than the photo of the English Leghorn does.

I have a new batch of cockerels that matches the back and tail of the English Leghorn really well, but tend to be a little fuller in the chest as depicted in the American Leghorn.

I have hens with both types of tails, but I haven't really had a cockerel or hen with the swooping back of the American Leghorns as depicted in the illustration.

Maybe the English Leghorn hen was just standing at an odd angle in the photo? She also appeared to have fuller under fluff than what has been recommended?

Sol2go, I shared these photos of my Legbars that I entered in the Cream Legbar club on-line show in October with you before, but will share them again here for open discussion.

This first Pullet is the shape that I wanting early on with my flock. There wasn't any published breeding guides for the Legbar, but there were sever really good reference for the Leghorn and I was told the Leghorn type was the base for the Legbar type so I read though guides as well as the Plymouth Rock guides and a few others to learn what made one breed different from another in the SOP descriptions and what to look for in pairing an mating. This pullet has the well rounded breast, the curved back, a fanned tail, etc. She looked really good until Mr. Scrivener clued me in that the APA Leghorn is not the same thing as the English Legbhorn (which I had never before considered).



Here is another pullet that was entered in the on-line Legbar show. The judge liked this one and placed her 2nd in the Cream Pullet category. She has more of the "wedge shaped" body type that the English Standard of the Legbar calls for. This is a wedge from the straight line of the back and the front line of the hen. I am not sure if that is what the judges are looking for or if that is what our proposed APA standard means the way it is written, but about ever 6 months I learn something new that I didn't understand or missed previously so I am putting this out for discussion so we all can learn. It should be noted that the proposed APA standard for the Cream Legbar deviated from the English Standard in that it went with fanned APA tail rather than the pointed English tail because the pointed tail is an unthrifty bird and the breeders in the USA knew that the Legbar would have to be a Thrifty bird for it to be a popular breed. Form and function go hand in hand.



Here is the cockerel that I entered. He has the straigh line downward sloping back. The wattles are long like the image of the English Leghorns above. The APA leghorn image shows a more round wattle. Again this is any area I don't know which is better. I like the rounded wattles but don't know what the English Leghorn are shooting for or which direction the APA Legbar needs to go. I am assuming that it will go with the more more refined comb and rounded wattles, but again I am putting this out for discussion. He also shows what I could call a "Wedge Shaped" body from the profile.

 

[sol2go]

Sol2go, I shared these photos of my Legbars that I entered in the Cream Legbar club on-line show in October with you before, but will share them again here for open discussion.

This first Pullet is the shape that I wanting early on with my flock. There wasn't any published breeding guides for the Legbar, but there were sever really good reference for the Leghorn and I was told the Leghorn type was the base for the Legbar type so I read though guides as well as the Plymouth Rock guides and a few others to learn what made one breed different from another in the SOP descriptions and what to look for in pairing an mating. This pullet has the well rounded breast, the curved back, a fanned tail, etc. She looked really good until Mr. Scrivener clued me in that the APA Leghorn is not the same thing as the English Legbhorn (which I had never before considered).



Here is another pullet that was entered in the on-line Legbar show. The judge liked this one and placed her 2nd in the Cream Pullet category. She has more of the "wedge shaped" body type that the English Standard of the Legbar calls for. This is a wedge from the straight line of the back and the front line of the hen. I am not sure if that is what the judges are looking for or if that is what our proposed APA standard means the way it is written, but about ever 6 months I learn something new that I didn't understand or missed previously so I am putting this out for discussion so we all can learn. It should be noted that the proposed APA standard for the Cream Legbar deviated from the English Standard in that it went with fanned APA tail rather than the pointed English tail because the pointed tail is an unthrifty bird and the breeders in the USA knew that the Legbar would have to be a Thrifty bird for it to be a popular breed. Form and function go hand in hand.



Here is the cockerel that I entered. He has the straigh line downward sloping back. The wattles are long like the image of the English Leghorns above. The APA leghorn image shows a more round wattle. Again this is any area I don't know which is better. I like the rounded wattles but don't know what the English Leghorn are shooting for or which direction the APA Legbar needs to go. I am assuming that it will go with the more more refined comb and rounded wattles, but again I am putting this out for discussion. He also shows what I could call a "Wedge Shaped" body from the profile.

What I'm seeing - in both genders that favor the English Leghorn, the curve of the chest sets up higher, more in line with the top of the wings/shoulder, rather than the lower curve which aligns with the bottom of the tucked up wings.

This reminds me of hybrids between large body breeds and light body egg layers, which seem to have all their mass in bone structure not so much in muscle/meat.
Your thoughts?

And thanks for bringing the photos up again, it takes more than one pass for sure...

 

[GaryDean26]

It has been at least two years, but one of the breeding guides that I read (published around 1920) talked about the difference between the high breast on the low breast. I don't remember for certain but I think that it was a guide to breeding APA Leghorns. At any rate it described the high breast as being the type required for game fowl and the lower breast as being what was required for the breed being discussed (APA Leghorn?).

The only guide that I found that used "wedge shape" to describe the shape of a breed was Silver Dunn's book on the Blue Andalusian. The Andalusian is the APA breed that I feel is closest to the desired shape for the APA Legbar. I only have looked through the Andalusian standard a few times and by no means have it memorized, but the images/photos I have seen of the breed do appear to have that higher breast. that has the mass lined up with the shoulder.

 

[sol2go]

It has been at least two years, but one of the breeding guides that I read (published around 1920) talked about the difference between the high breast on the low breast. I don't remember for certain but I think that it was a guide to breeding APA Leghorns. At any rate it described the high breast as being the type required for game fowl and the lower breast as being what was required for the breed being discussed (APA Leghorn?).

The only guide that I found that used "wedge shape" to describe the shape of a breed was Silver Dunn's book on the Blue Andalusian. The Andalusian is the APA breed that I feel is closest to the desired shape for the Legbar. I only have looked through the Andalusian standard a few times and by no means have it memorized, but the images/photos I have seen of the breed do appear to have that higher breast. that has the mass lined up with the shoulder.

I have been looking at my breeding groups with a different eye, hmmm. Hope to get some hatched out and ready for fall shows =)

 

[ccshambhala]

Hi all! I read back thru several pages of posts and it looks like both my roosters are a bit too dark. That said I'd like to get down to one - which do you think is better?

Roo #1






Roo #2







Thanks much

 

[BassRoof]

I am sorry if this is not the right place to ask this but thought you guys might know.

We are hatching Cream Legbar chicks and we are trying to choose a couple males to grow out. Does it make a difference if the male is dark or light at birth in relation to proper color as an adult. We have gotten a decent amount of variation in our boy chicks and we are wondering.

Thank in advanced

 

[GaryDean26]

I am sorry if this is not the right place to ask this but thought you guys might know.

We are hatching Cream Legbar chicks and we are trying to choose a couple males to grow out. Does it make a difference if the male is dark or light at birth in relation to proper color as an adult. We have gotten a decent amount of variation in our boy chicks and we are wondering.

Thank in advanced

Here is a link to the "study" I did on CLB down color in 2012. My first two cockerels were very different in color. One was a yellow color and the other was a dark slate. I knew another breed 45 minutes from me that hatched 8 cockerels and a pullet and I got her to save me the lightest and darkest colored cockerel of the group. So there are only 4 cockerels in this comparison but I really didn't feel the down color made much difference in the mature cockerel colors. There are really no short cuts to getting a good cockerel. You have to grow them out to know which one is the best. If you don't have room to keep them all for at least 3-4 months then just choose the largest most active ones and hope for the best.

If the link doesn't work here as some of the comparisons below.

Here are the first two cockerels with the yellow one on the far right and the slate one 2nd from the left.


Here are the two from the breeder 45 mins from me. The darkest in the hatch on the left and the lightest on the right.



Here are the two from the other breeder at about 6 months old. The dark on in front and the light one in back.



Liam, shown below, was the dark cockerel from the first hatch. I don't have a mature photo of the light cockerel but he was colored about the same as the other three. Chestnut shoulder, gold tail, cream hackle. grey breast and legs. The photo below shows the offspring od the three cockerels. There were some noted difference from group to group, but the color wasn't very indicative of what type of mature bird they turned into.

 

[Red Banks]

Good Morning CH,

I know this was a color experiment but could you tell me what you liked and disliked about these three roosters.

All my best...... Pat