Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[GaryDean26]

I think that floppy leghorn comb is a mistake, IMHO. Especially in the whites. A smaller comb looks better on the hens.

Can you explain what you mean by that statement above?

The English standard can be found HERE and the most resent draft for the proposed APA standard HERE.

My interpretation is that the hen is NOT required to have a floppy comb but that it is one of the sexual difference that is allowed in the female where as the the English standard lists that a twisted or folded over comb is a serious defect in the male (i.e. allowed but something that will be docked points in exhibition and should be worked away from in breeding).

Are you reading something fro the English Standard or latest draft of the proposed APA standard? Please post what you are reading so it can be discussed and if the consensus is that it is listed wrong or confusing it can be revised.

 

[duluthralphie]

Can you explain what you mean by that statement above?

The English standard can be found HERE and the most resent draft for the proposed APA standard HERE.

My interpretation is that the hen is NOT required to have a floppy comb but that it is one of the sexual difference that is allowed in the female where as the the English standard lists that a twisted or folded over comb is a serious defect in the male (i.e. allowed but something that will be docked points in exhibition and should be worked away from in breeding).

Are you reading something fro the English Standard or latest draft of the proposed APA standard? Please post what you are reading so it can be discussed and if the consensus is that it is listed wrong or confusing it can be revised.

Here is what is says for males:


Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, straight and upright, deeply and evenly serrated with six distinct points, extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from side sprigs, thumb-marks or twists.

And here is for females:
Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.




To me, and I could be wrong but it has to flop or fold at the first point to the side. That is similar to the leghorns:


I do not find a lot of difference in the two. This is from my SOP for leghorns.



The difference is droop to the side or fold to the side. I think they are about the same. The rooster is to be straight but the hen droops/folds, When the hens actually have larger better crests (well at least mine do) than the roosters.


This is what I meant...

I hope I explained it and I know I could be all wet on this too, Once a few judges see them we will know better I am sure.

 

[duluthralphie]

AHHHH Nothing came through!!


Let me try again:

The rooster comb SOP:

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, straight and upright, deeply and evenly serrated with six distinct points, extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from side sprigs, thumb-marks or twists.


The Female Comb SOP:

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.




The leghorn Comb SOP female:




Unless, I am incorrect the flop, fold or droop are all the same.
These are legbars not leghorns. It goes beyond my personally not liking the look of a comb that is not straight and up right.

I wish it said "a small or medium comb, or a comb that is not large. Straight and upright or with a slight fold (this is to appease those that like flops).

I live in the northern states, it gets cold here. If a person raises chickens up here a medium comb large enough to flop or have a fold is going to suffer winter trimming/frostbite.

Now if I put 4 birds to a cage and 10,000 birds in a building they might not freeze any other way they will. One of the largest arguments against the leghorn type comb is the damage and pain the bird takes in the winter.

I took issues with the SOPs on another breed saying the SOPs and a production or backyard bird are not the same thing, the SOPs sometimes make a worse chicken for many of us.paraphrasing

The response I got was, paraphrasing " no, the SOP's make for a better backyard or production bird, everything in the SOPs makes the bird more desirable"

A comb that is as large as the proposed SOPs suggest is counter to ownership for us in the cold country.

 

[GaryDean26]

The image of the Leghorn comb standard that is listed above is NOT what the Legbar is bred to. That is the APA leghorn standard. The Legbars was established with the English Leghorn comb which has some notable differences.

1) APA Leghorn comb = 5 points
English Leghorn Comb = range of 5-7 points (but ranges are not permitted by APA which is why 6 points is the goal of the proposed SOP.

2) APA Leghorn - Medium comb
English Leghorn - Large comb

3) APA leghorn - blade of the comb is horizontal
English Leghorn - blade of the comb follows the line of the neck w/o touching it.

At the beginning of this thread there were lots of opinions on what type of comb the APA Legbar should have some wanted the APA Leghorn comb because they felt the English Legbar should follow the English Leghorn and the APA Legbar should follow the APA Leghorn. Others felt that since the Legbar will be in the English class and not the American Class that it should follow the English Leghorn. Some felt that we should breed to what gives the bird the best balance and their are cased for 5, 6, and 7 points depending on what people in that category were working with.

I could go on about the advantages of the different types of blades with the inference of the crest, the challenges of different comb sizes with single mating and double mating, etc. but I think that most of the people that contributed to the comb conversation at the beginning of this thread found what works best for their flock and breeding to. Most of the people currently on this thread were not part of that conversation so let us know what you opinions are and what you are finding that works best for your flock.

As for myself:

1) I found that a fly away comb (this is listed as a general defect by APA) interfere the least with the crest but and breeding to the English Blade that follows the neck.

2) I have found that medium combs give the Legbar a better balanced work and work best for Single Mates flock to produce both males with combs that don't fold or twist. I am breeding to medium combs per the APA leghorn standard.

3) I live the look of a 5 point comb but am not breeding to a certain number of points yet. I see four points, five point, six point, seven point birds, etc. I would like to have a consistent 6 point flock (per the English standard) and it something I will work on further down the road.

For Discussion:

This comb has the erect first point with the droop to one side.



This one does NOT have an erect first point. She as an "S" shaped or "Wickle" comb. There has been a lot of discussion about the "S" shaped comb in the Legbar. It is NOT what the standard calls for but is what we usually see.



Here is an APA Leghorn Comb.



Here is a fly away comb in the back with the blade rising and a folded forward comb in the from. Both Defects.



Here is an erect comb



Here is an English type comb with the large size, more than 5 points and the blade following the neck


Here is a better example of the blade following the neck with out touching it (the guy above looks like it is touching the neck). He has few points.



Okay I over did it on example photos. Just tell us what your thoughts are combs for the APA SOP and what you are breeding to in your flock. And by "you" I do mean all the lurkers reading this thread too.

 

[duluthralphie]

Are you saying this:

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.


Is not the proposed SOP?

I got this from the proposed SOP on the club website.

I was not involved when legbar SOP conversation started and was not even a fan of legbars until I hatched my own from my "original" ones. My Originals were flighty terrible birds. After I hatched my own I found them fantastic birds. I guess how they are raised makes a difference.


To me the comb on the rooster makes little difference no matter what I will never be able to show a rooster because of the winter trimming. I like the looks of the large comb before they winter trim. I like them straight and upright, I do like the fine combs on the hens and I like them free of wrinkles, folds, flops, I like them straight and small. I also like the larger crest on the hens. I think the crest is what makes the legbar stand out (in addition to the blue eggs) from other breeds.

I am not naive enough to expect everyone to agree with me. As I said my man concern is winter damage on large single combs. I am actually looking seriously at getting rid of singel comb birds for this reason. I have my Speckled Sussex, I worked so hard and spent so much money to keep his comb damage free, and in the end I lost the tips on a few points. It s depressing.

I will never be able to compete in any class with a large comb, if legbars go that way, I will have to think seriously about my future with them. I am not trying to "poor me" the discussion. I am pointing this out because I know others up here in the north think the same way. Emphasizing a large comb when it does not need hurts the breed in general, with people in winter climates.

I hope I made my point and reasons logically. i m relatively new to bird showing, and have just had mutts for most of my life. I find I love having a fancy great looking bird I can show off.

Thanks

I like a crest behind to comb, which is one of the things I fight in my breeding. I have so many that end up nearly crestless. I want a crest that is easy to see and not just one or two feathers that stick out like so many seem to have..


I actually like the smaller comb on the hens but can live with a medium one, but it takes from the looks of the bird, but this is purely aesthetics. The larger combs take too much winter damage for me, up here in the hinterlands.

 

[GaryDean26]

Are you saying this...Is not the proposed SOP?

Nope...I am saying the APA Leghorn Standard is not the proposed SOP for the Legbar.

The proposes SOP for the Legbar is for the standard to stay true to the English Legbar standard which was based on the English Leghorn standard. If you want to understand the Legbar Type don't look at the APA Leghorn type. Look at the English Leghorn type.

Good point on the winter freeze on large combs. That should be discussed since half 90% of the country gets winter freeze.

 

[duluthralphie]

Nope...I am saying the APA Leghorn Standard is not the proposed SOP for the Legbar.

The proposes SOP for the Legbar is for the standard to stay true to the English Legbar standard which was based on the English Leghorn standard. If you want to understand the Legbar Type don't look at the APA Leghorn type. Look at the English Leghorn type.

Oh,, Okay I understand now. Yes, I knew that, I guess I was trying to make the point the legbar is not the leghorn,,and we are not English, and have not been for 250 years,,,

I understand what they are doing and why, I just think we (speaking collectively) need or should take into account the differences we have with the point of origin. England does not have winter weather even close to approaching ours. I would like the SOP to take that into account also. I guess I am saying what makes a good bird in one place does not in another.

I am sorry if it came across that I thought the SOP came from the leghorn, I did not, I was pointing out it was similar to the leghorns SOP is all and the leghorn SOP does not work well up here. Maybe we need to work on breeding a legbar with a cushion, pea or rose comb like the leghorns did so we can have a northern Legbar of some kind. Of course, at my age that is not something I would want to attempt because of the can of worms it opens with or from the original stock and getting the desired traits back.

 

[Bantambird]

Eli after a major cold snap hit -30. Since then, it looks much better since the black parts fell off. Lost a toe too, poor fella. I had to be at a funeral when the first cold snap of the year hit, and my mom didn't make him stay inside.

Big Ears suffered least damage compared to most others. This was before winter dubbing. He is being kept for those lovely earlobes, since about half my ladies have inadequate white on their earlobes.

Eli before dubbing.

Comparatively, I've only had 3 hens experience dubbing during winter, and whereas the cocks/cockerels loose cobs/toes, I've never had a hen/pullet loose toes. The legbar males seem to be very temperature sensitive!

 

[duluthralphie]

Eli after a major cold snap hit -30. Since then, it looks much better since the black parts fell off. Lost a toe too, poor fella. I had to be at a funeral when the first cold snap of the year hit, and my mom didn't make him stay inside.

Big Ears suffered least damage compared to most others. This was before winter dubbing. He is being kept for those lovely earlobes, since about half my ladies have inadequate white on their earlobes. Eli before dubbing.

Comparatively, I've only had 3 hens experience dubbing during winter, and whereas the cocks/cockerels loose cobs/toes, I've never had a hen/pullet loose toes. The legbar males seem to be very temperature sensitive!

Do your hens have what you would call large, medium or small combs?

Just curious. I have seen damage on some of mine with larger combs but not to the extent of the roosters.


Which is why I would like the SOP to address the problem combs for us. I know I am most likely tipping windmills, but at least I make the problem known. To me it makes sense to have an SOP that works across the entire country and not just the southern half.

 

[Bantambird]

I have medium combs on my ladies, but they run the gamut on shape, especially pertaining to their crests.