Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

I tried to choose something that was 'familiar' to start. Like I said I'm an artist and do and teach Graphic Design. This was just a starting point as I am sure many others have great ideas. I draw really well - really well - so if we needed something original I could do that but I don't think we should use the images of the plate as that would be infringement. I could redraw Punnetts as those are past the copyright date or if we had an agreed upon photo I could also use that and it could be done in black ink and digitized any way we wanted.

Brilliant.
No I never meant that we would use the Daine Jacky art work, I just wanted people to know that cream legbar artwork is out there. I'm wanting to be a "purist' and keep my birds as close to the Punnett idea as I possibly could. If it is agreeable to the members, that would IMO be a very strong contender for a logo for the American Cream Legbar Club... (Like ACLC) - or if we don't need American because we are so close to the British, then.....Cream Legbar Club (CLC)

If you take the Punnett illustrations and draw from them, I think we would have both hen and cockerel in the correct form.

Whoo Hooo! Since you have the art skills and art is priceless, down the road when the club would need a fund raiser, we could have a silent auction of some of your origianals. (if the club could afford the originals, of course)-- We will need funds, and Cream Legbar gear may be something that could be turned into originals. Depending upon your time avail for this. (Art sets its own clock IMO) So if you want to work on some alternative designs.....then, they would probably be something that could be used in the future. I think however, the copyright for the club logo would belong to the club.....not sure on that. Other copyrights would of course be retained by the artist. I like what you did BTW, the foot position looks so familiar.... ;O) And isn't art work on the computer...revolutionary.

Regarding chicks...I know some of the hatcheries, have pictures of chicken breed families, I think a lot of that art may be Diane Jacky's stuff....but I think maybe for the logo, chicks would actually look like puff balls...so I opt that they are out of the logo JMO. We can vote once a club gets formed.

Type face. It is beautiful....but my mind thinks it is someone else's. Maybe you could have a couple of alternative typefaces for the club. Sorry to spout so many ideas. what do you think, and others for LOGO?

 

[normanack]

So I was playing around a bit and this is a first draft.  Format will have to be addressed - I chose circular as that was one initial suggestion. Background -  I chose blue - blue eggs and we can Pantone that for exactness. I chose  Monotype Corsiva for type and pilfered the bird and digitized it just for this example.  I added a simple stroke outline.  It can go in any which way from here.

Keep in mind I am not an artist or graphic designer --

I really like this whole general idea.

Details -- tweak the kerning?
Experiment with plainer typefaces? I love this one, though.
Pull the bottom words closer to the outline? I get a slight sense of the lettering as a whole being cramped.

 

[redchicken9]

Just some quick review.

Thanks ChicKat, really needed to see the first post! I hope you're running to a library to check the British Poultry Standards! Does anyone have a copy?

Both up-to-date standards are on their way!

The roosters pictured on your link are what the standard describes as I read it and that is what we should be breeding toward if we are going to maintain the Cream Legbar as it currently exists in the UK. It is not what I am seeing in my own rooster and pictures posted here, which is crele i.e. barred black and red.

The geneticists, APA judges or other experts, please feel free to correct me as this is my current understanding and I'm still learning. First, the base color of the Cream Legbar appears to be a "dusty black" or what is seen by the eye as dark gray as opposed to black. The "cream" is where the double dose of barring is not blocking distribution of pigment i.e. the white part --- not a diluted red i.e. pale lemon/buff mixed in with the lack of pigment which is what I see in the top of my roo's neck (pictured here)


and hen lower neck hackles



rooster hackles blending to red/chestnut back and saddle. I think this is more than "some chestnut permitted."



What all of this boils down to is a basic decision. Are we as a group going to breed to the UK standard as it is, which is more 'silver/gray' than what we all seem to have or are we going to breed the "American" Cream Legbar based upon what we all seem to have, which is a bird that contains a lot of chestnut/red/buff/lemon.

The UK standard says cream. My bird looks very much as yours. Right now we are looking at a breed with a heritage. I believe some of Punnett's work is based on illustrating or confirming the Ig cream? While we are visualizing what the BPS language says on general shape, form and color, I hope that we'll see a bird that closer meets the UK ideal. Also it's good to know what is here and what people like. Once there is a sense on both of these thing, it'll probably be a good debate. However, what if the cream legbar is cream (after all it's in the name)? Then, I believe we will all work towards cream.

While I like the popularity of BYC and agree that it gets more exposure in general, its popularity also is a disadvantage when posts get buried so quickly. Since we are trying to establish baseline documents, it would be easier to have a format that allows certain documents to be easily accessed. I am most familiar with Yahoo groups which is a discussion format with an area for quick reference to draft documents and pictures. I know it would be easier for me to focus on specific things with such a format rather than scanning through ever growing pages to find the specific info I'm looking for.

Just my 2 cents.

OK, my lack of knowledge is a drawback. I'd like to move to a place where there is a quick reference to draft documents and keep pictures. There is a certain amount of traffic and viewing here. Should we look at the female here, so all can see, then move to Yahoo groups to write?

The leg color looks good in the photo. That is an easy fix unless the legs are the wrong color. When you folks write the Standard be sure that you don't back yourselves into a corner by writing something that can't be attained.

Great idea to have bird pics posted to discuss as a group. I have included in my SOP report for this weekend at Lucasville OH that you folks are working on a Standard for the CL's.

Walt
Walt

This is a big question, but do you think the UK standard/ BPS is unattainable? Also below are you connected with anyone in the UK for historical images?

As a judge, the males in the link do not fit the color description as they appear in the pictures. None of the males I have seen do. They are either too light or too dark where they should be cream.

Walt

Please, there must be historical British archives on this. Is there someone crafty here to seek it out? Maybe there are more black and white plates, painted early pictures, or winners in color, perhaps from the 1950s.

from the weblink provided...


"COLOUR
Plumage, Cream Variety, Male: Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feather permissible. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible."

if we go by their description, the rooster on their website is not following their own standards... that rooster looks just like a Silver Crele with autosomal red showing on its shoulders(not even full red shoulders)..



there are two types of Silver Duckwing or Silver Crele birds, the clean ones, that lack autosomal red(cant completely inhibited by Barring, Cream, Dilute or even pure silver S/S)

here is nice clean Silver Crele bird(sorry I was not able to find birds with the clesest body type to legbar/leghorn)



another clean silver crele


A Clean Silver Crele Leghorn..



here is Silver Crele bird showing autosomal red...




is Cream with the help of Barring strong enough to give you a silver crele looking bird? I just cant see it..

Many thanks Nicalandia for these visuals. Apologies I might have attributed this incorrectly last post.

This has been posted as showing the difference between correct and incorrect coloring in the UK CL circles, "gold" being on the left and "cream" being on the right. I agree this looks more like a silver to me but I know nothing about feather colors or genetics.




My PERSONAL feelings- I love starting with the British standard AS A STARTING POINT but given what we have in stock to work with (and the fact that I like their look better) I would rather see the push towards an American Cream Legbar, one with more color allowed. There IS such a thing as TOO MUCH color, but I like a little of the chestnut in the saddle (which is not allowed in the British standard) and a decent amount in the shoulders and back, more than "some chestnut permissible." I will happily go along with whatever is decided and will deal with breeding to standard- but as I do have a preference I suppose now is the time to let it be known if it has a chance of influencing the standard!

Rinda

We have two years of stock here, most with the same lineage. I like my colorful males, but let's see what the BPS means. We might not be that far away and it may have some color!

Another person also made that connection:

"I believe a lot of dark cockerels (one barring copy) are being used, with not enough colour in them i.e. Chestnut and Autosomal red, this leads to non barred offspring and light chested females.

The standard is quite misleading, in that it says the @#!*% 's should be with "dark grey barring" to some this is taken that the bird should be dark, but to breed correctly he needs two copies of the barring gene, so this inevitably gives him a much lighter look as with any male barred or cuckoo breed. However in between the two copies of barring they should have dark grey bars."

Source: http://www.practicalpoultry.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1348647931/2

There are pictures there but I am not a member so I can't see them.

That is a good insight. Would dropping the olive eggs, and putting more emphasis on the cream of the male hackles (female too I think) versus the UK's silver, make the birds different. I suspect that it would. Thanks again for your insights to the group.

Just going to mark my spot. I would LOVE to get in on this journey with y'all. I just hatched some CLB's and it appears I'm starting with a trio. More eggs on the way, as I'm hatching all winter.

While I don't have specific CLB experience, I have a lot of poultry experience. If you're looking still for a web designer, I'll toss my hat in for that, as I have 12+ years experience in the field, along with digital graphics work. I sent my info to (someone) who at one point claimed responsibility for tracking members and people.

As far as working on-site here at BYC, you'll get the traffic, but the traffic may be counter-productive. When organizing and structuring a project, I've always found it best to do so in a lower traffic area where specifics can be addressed easily and concisely, then bring summaries and bullet points to the high traffic area.

Please connect with Laingcroff and ChicKat for this.

thats a nice contrast pics, showing the dilution effect of double barred birds...



well its Autosomal Red enhancing the shoulders, birds with cream shoulders should lack autosomal red...


Fron the "Standard"

"Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible"


Basque breed are based on wheaten, which is almost impossible chick down to sex at hatch... if they were based on eb or e+ they would be an autosexable breed just like legbars

Welcome, glad to have you, I am the one you messaged, anyone else who missed the post send your info to me: name, address, phone, email, stock source and quantity (if you have them), and what ways/talents you have that would help us get things going.

MnM, I'm sure we can use your web designer expertise, I'll let others weigh in on how and when but we certainly do need someone who can get us started on that!

For those, who want to become members of a club when formed, please add your name into this (on my to do list!).

Brilliant.
No I never meant that we would use the Daine Jacky art work, I just wanted people to know that cream legbar artwork is out there. I'm wanting to be a "purist' and keep my birds as close to the Punnett idea as I possibly could. If it is agreeable to the members, that would IMO be a very strong contender for a logo for the American Cream Legbar Club... (Like ACLC) - or if we don't need American because we are so close to the British, then.....Cream Legbar Club (CLC)

If you take the Punnett illustrations and draw from them, I think we would have both hen and cockerel in the correct form.

Whoo Hooo! Since you have the art skills and art is priceless, down the road when the club would need a fund raiser, we could have a silent auction of some of your origianals. (if the club could afford the originals, of course)-- We will need funds, and Cream Legbar gear may be something that could be turned into originals. Depending upon your time avail for this. (Art sets its own clock IMO) So if you want to work on some alternative designs.....then, they would probably be something that could be used in the future. I think however, the copyright for the club logo would belong to the club.....not sure on that. Other copyrights would of course be retained by the artist. I like what you did BTW, the foot position looks so familiar.... ;O) And isn't art work on the computer...revolutionary.

Regarding chicks...I know some of the hatcheries, have pictures of chicken breed families, I think a lot of that art may be Diane Jacky's stuff....but I think maybe for the logo, chicks would actually look like puff balls...so I opt that they are out of the logo JMO. We can vote once a club gets formed.

Type face. It is beautiful....but my mind thinks it is someone else's. Maybe you could have a couple of alternative typefaces for the club. Sorry to spout so many ideas. what do you think, and others for LOGO?

Keep in mind I am not an artist or graphic designer --
I really like this whole general idea.
Details -- tweak the kerning?
Experiment with plainer typefaces? I love this one, though.
Pull the bottom words closer to the outline? I get a slight sense of the lettering as a whole being cramped.

Let's keep looking at logo prototypes. Glad we have you! Anyone for British blue or a small reference, even if we go American? Blue, red and white on edge? Please ignore if impractical.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

For those of you who also have a facebook account, there is a "Cream Legbar Breeders Group" with mostly UK members, they post LOTS of pictures so if anyone is interested in seeing "real people's" birds you could send a request to join. http://www.facebook.com/groups/332175963534766/

ETA: Lots more pictures, especially comparing correct to incorrect here:

https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery

 

[omaeve]

Sorry I mean Clb are throwing cream solid chicks from greenfire line one.?

 

[redchicken9]

Lonnyandrina thanks went to second site. Looks like mine and perhaps others here have a lot of gold and chestnut!
Omaeve, madamwlf, I believe has the whites (not sure they are cream or whites), it might be good to touch base with her. Am hoping to see her show some of her cream legbars.

 

[nicalandia]

ETA: Lots more pictures, especially comparing correct to incorrect here:

https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery

while they show whats correct or incorrect, they dont say how to get from incorrect to correct...I will be ilustrating that in a few moments

 

[normanack]

while they show whats correct or incorrect, they dont say how to get from incorrect to correct...I will be ilustrating that in a few moments

Paint?

 

[nicalandia]

Paint?

I wish it was that easy.. at this moment I am gathering ALL of the info I need it(pics, genetics)

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Paint?

LOL!!!!