Cream Legbars

[SlipsWife]

Is anyone else having trouble hatching Cream Legbar eggs? I feel awful, we have a bunch go in to lockdown, and then 6 hatch.
Our very first hatch, with our mixed eggs, went great. Hatch rate was about 80%. Our last hatch was crap. Frustrating!

I'm having issues with early quitters on the CL eggs. I added a few to our first hatch, along with our CL rooster over our different hens. I wish I would have documented better but most of the CL didn't make it to lockdown. The hatch was a 100% fail overall, I think they shrink wrapped.

So far I've pulled 5 eggs from this hatch (minus the 12 shipped eggs that got pulled...) 4 out of 5 were CL eggs. 2 were clear, 2 were early quitters. There are 3 left, with one that I'm questioning is also a quitter but I'm not sure. The rest of the eggs are looking good, now if I can get them to hatch...So basically I don't think its our rooster that's the issue as far as developing.

I'm mainly just using their eggs as controls for our shipped eggs but I have found it disappointing that the CL eggs are quitting early. I'm not looking forward to playing the 'guessing and waiting game' on our mixes for pullets/cockerels but at this point I don't care as long as they hatch!

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Thanks ChicKat and chicken pickin. I am new to CLB. I bought the eggs at a local meet-up, and they were all light blue eggs. I didn't see the parents, but the seller assured me that the eggs were pure CLB eggs, not mixed breed. He also had a whole bunch of 'teenage' CLBs and showed me the white spots on the males. Since they weren't chicks, I didn't really know what they were supposed to look like at hatch. As for the black ones, do I wait for crowing to confirm they are males or are there features I should watch for as they grow to know if they are boys? Thanks so much for your help.

I agree with what was said, those are not pure cream legbars. The black ones look like my male sexlinks I make with BCM over CL. But as ChicKat said, if the male was a different breed but barred the head spot doesn't mean anything. You should be able to tell the males by comb development and leg size at about 6 weeks old. No need to wait for crowing.

I'm having issues with early quitters on the CL eggs. I added a few to our first hatch, along with our CL rooster over our different hens. I wish I would have documented better but most of the CL didn't make it to lockdown. The hatch was a 100% fail overall, I think they shrink wrapped.

So far I've pulled 5 eggs from this hatch (minus the 12 shipped eggs that got pulled...) 4 out of 5 were CL eggs. 2 were clear, 2 were early quitters. There are 3 left, with one that I'm questioning is also a quitter but I'm not sure. The rest of the eggs are looking good, now if I can get them to hatch...So basically I don't think its our rooster that's the issue as far as developing.

I'm mainly just using their eggs as controls for our shipped eggs but I have found it disappointing that the CL eggs are quitting early. I'm not looking forward to playing the 'guessing and waiting game' on our mixes for pullets/cockerels but at this point I don't care as long as they hatch!

Sorry you're having a rough start! Shipped eggs just have a harder time overall, there are a lot more early quitters and "fully formed but don't hatch." Your own pure CL eggs that didn't make it may just be a fluke, I would try it one more time before being worried about inbreeding depression. Hope the rest make it!

 

[KPenley]

I agree with what was said, those are not pure cream legbars.  The black ones look like my male sexlinks I make with BCM over CL.  But as ChicKat said, if the male was a different breed but barred the head spot doesn't mean anything.  You should be able to tell the males by comb development and leg size at about 6 weeks old.  No need to wait for crowing.


Sorry you're having a rough start!  Shipped eggs just have a harder time overall, there are a lot more early quitters and "fully formed but don't hatch."  Your own pure CL eggs that didn't make it may just be a fluke, I would try it one more time before being worried about inbreeding depression.  Hope the rest make it!

x2 Plus, seeing how you're in hot weather season like me, it may be the AC ( if you use it). I have had 100% hatches when the heater was on, and at worst lost 1 or two. Last summer I lost over 50 eggs with developing chicks, trying to hatch during the summer months. It could entirely be my inexperience dealing with higher humidity in the air, but I decided to incubator hatch only between October and March now. Broodies seem to be gtg whenever

 

[ChicKat]

I agree with what was said, those are not pure cream legbars. The black ones look like my male sexlinks I make with BCM over CL. But as ChicKat said, if the male was a different breed but barred the head spot doesn't mean anything. You should be able to tell the males by comb development and leg size at about 6 weeks old. No need to wait for crowing.


Sorry you're having a rough start! Shipped eggs just have a harder time overall, there are a lot more early quitters and "fully formed but don't hatch." Your own pure CL eggs that didn't make it may just be a fluke, I would try it one more time before being worried about inbreeding depression. Hope the rest make it!

Maybe it was Chickin' Pickin's observation -- mine was more vague....

-- but blue eggs from someone who thought that they were CLs...makes me think stealth rooster too...sometimes those chickens can fool ya!

Is anyone else having trouble hatching Cream Legbar eggs? I feel awful, we have a bunch go in to lockdown, and then 6 hatch.
Our very first hatch, with our mixed eggs, went great. Hatch rate was about 80%. Our last hatch was crap. Frustrating!

Just had my last hatch for a while---set 13--- one was blood-ring - so 12 made lock down. Got seven girls and two boys--- (my odds are pretty good in favor of females... Someone told me a while ago about the old timer's saying == "if you have a hen that produces mostly females - hang on to her"...interesting side line there...)

The last ones developed and didn't hatch...and I only eggtopseyed one. the last one to successfully hatch was a boy--- he was so BIG inside the egg, that he was kind of cramped and was folded in half...his big feet were nearly keeping his beak from touching the edge of the shell to zip -- poor thing...and The chicks sometimes hatched from the wrong end of the egg. I was really looking at the egg shape... one CL I have has a very pointy "small end" - So I thought that there would be a lot of compression there and the chick would get a good 'foot hold' to leverage itself. The other hen that was in this hatch -- has a more oval egg...and on some of them there isn't much differentiation from the small end/large end.

I think there are a lot of CLs with eggs that are very differentiated - like a top -- really large on one end, really small on the other....That being said -- the hatches from the two hens in two identical incubators were pretty much identical. The eggs are smallish, and I wonder if the chick outgrows space to move around to position itself correctly- or if my auto turner is auto turning wrong.

but 9/12 not too bad and only 2 of them males -- very good! (anyone near me need some chicks?) LOL

 

[GaryDean26]

Here is a gold-colored & double barred rooster for those who want to get to the bottom of it:

Here is another:

Those that are lighter than the two above images are showing the results of Cream gene diluting the gold...

Okay, so the logic here is...
1) A Welbar is genetically double-barred and Gold.
2) A genetically double-barred and Gold Crested Cream Legbar is made lighter with the addition of the Cream Genetics.
3) Therefore any Crested Cream Legbar that is lighter than a Welbar must be genetically cream.

This is a good comparison, but as acknowledged there is not one single shade of Cream, but rather a range. Observations and comparisons also suggest that their is not a single shade of gold, but a range of genetically gold birds. The Welbars are on the dark end of the range of Gold, so many shades that are lighter than the Welbar can still be genetically Gold.

Where is the proof? It is in what the offspring looks like or in other words if they breed true (if not, they aren't since Cream always breeds true), but for the academic exercise I would like to propose that expande our look at the Welbar to include Gold Legbars in the comparison (remember? There is a white egg laying non-crested variety that are build on Brown Legbhorns just like Cream Legbars).


Here are some Gold Legbars in the UK (white eggs, non-crested, no cream). They are MUCH lighter than the Welbar, but genetically Gold.



Here are some Gold Legbars in Australia. (White Eggs, Non-crested, no cream). This cockerel is lighter than even some genetically Cream examples which shows that how light/dark a bird is has multiple factors at play. This Aussie cockerel is genetically Gold. I suspect that he has the dilution barring found in Califonia Greys (and I believe Light Jaerhon have that barring type too, Jaerhon Genotype???).


And here are some Gold Leghorns in the USA (White Eggs, Non-cresting, no cream). Again, no cream genetic in these birds, but they are lighter than the Welbars.



And finally here is the Gold Legbar (white eggs, non-crested, no cream) that I was planning to use to recreate create Blue Egg Laying Legbars with prior to the arrive of the first Greenfire Farm Cream Legbar to Texas in 2011. Again, no cream genetics at play.


So what are the tells for cream?

Background: The Cream Gene [ig] which is also know as inhibitor of gold is a pheomelanin diluter. Pheomelanin is the red pigment in the chicken plumage.

The Hen
1) The small amount of red used to create the yellowish gold hackles of the hens is nearly completely removed leaving a off-white to cream color. This is NOT a yellow or straw color
2) The softer red color used in the body color of the hen are diluted to the point that the cream hen will be a shade of brown that is step or two closer to grey on the spectrum than they would be with out the cream gene.
3) The red used to color the breast of the hen will also be diluted by Cream genetic. The hen will have a light salmon or light pink colored breast. Their breast will NOT have the orange hues or the vibrant reds that their gold counterparts have.

The Cock
1) The yellow and chestnut color of the saddle feathers of the gold cockbird will be diluted to an off-white or cream color with the addition of cream genetics. In the same way that a recessive white bird on a corn diet can show yellow hues leaking through on the hackles, the coloring of the saddles will NOT be pure white. It is an off white or cream like a leaky white. NOT pure white.
2) The red color in the primary flight wings will also be diluted leaving the triangular tip of the folded wing void gold or yellow colors. It could however had chestnut smudges, since that is a stronger form of red that cream can not completely dilute.
3) The chestnut or red on the shoulder of the cockbird will be significantly diluted. You could be left with "smudges" of chestnut since Cream can completely dilute the red shoulders, but it will NOT be a solid red shoulder or a vibrant red. It will be very faint and smudgy. Note: Chestnut barring is NOT correct for a cream legbar cockerel. Was you select birds with out chestnut barring you may see less and less chestnut on the shoulder. There is not need to breed out all the red on the shoulder if you are not seeing the chestnut leaking to the saddles or other places it shouldn't be.
4) Some chestnut is permitted on the crest in the Cream Legbar Standard, but I seem to only see bright chestnut on the crest of gold cockerels. Like the chestnut on the shoulders, the chestnut on the crest will be smudged and faint. If you are seeing clear distinct chestnut on the crest you have a gold bird.
5) NOTE: The hackle color of the cockerel can be completely white on gold birds or cream bird, so the hackles of the cockerel should NOT be used to assess cream genetics. The white hackles however are poor coloring IMO. On the gold bird you want gold hackles so their counterpart in Cream will have the off-white/cream hackles. The step in between the white and the gold/cream hackles is to have gold/cream at the top of the head extending halfway down with the white starting on the lower half extending to the base of the neck. Once you have that color extending all the way to the base of the neck, you can achieve the same gold/cream color on the saddle as the hackles. I like the cream as dark as possible, but it has to be cream, so not vibrant red shoulders (smudgy red only), no crisp chestnut on the crest (faint smudges only), no gold on the saddles or triangle of the folded wing.

Here is a reference to show what I call smudgy shoulders. It is not a solid color but rather faint and diluted. The saddles may look white in this photo, but I assure you that if next to a white chick (Hmm, I have some whites I should us for comparisons) you would see that he is actually a quite saturated cream. Note: He has yellow ear lobes. I got about 50% to come out with yellow ear lobes and 50% with white ear lobes in his grow out group.

 

[Ashdoes]

For males chicks, what's everyone's preferred coloring. Just for chicks, hoping they grow correctly colored.
When I sell pullets, I give a male or two free, if they ask. I usually try to pick them a lighter overall grey coloring. I remember our original males from GFF were fairly dark chicks, so I'm pretty happy that I'm getting these lighter males from them.

 

[KPenley]

For males chicks, what's everyone's preferred coloring. Just for chicks, hoping they grow correctly colored.
When I sell pullets, I give a male or two free, if they ask. I usually try to pick them a lighter overall grey coloring. I remember our original males from GFF were fairly dark chicks, so I'm pretty happy that I'm getting these lighter males from them.

As long as they're muted wild type, at least a shade or two lighter than the girls, and have grays I'm happy. If there is no cinnamon red on them, it seems like they turn out with less red and golds. A bit of brown on the head doesn't seem to necessarily mean lots of red though. I was breeding for really light, almost blue, chicks this winter. But even they are growing in with lots of red so I can attest that down is not a 100% indicator of final coloring.

 

[dretd]

Quote: This is interesting...It looks like UK the Gold Legbar may have used a Cream Legbar base and back crossed to a Leghorn and removed the crest and blue egg whereas the American version clearly looks like a barred LB Leghorn cross--the amount of red around the throat and front of the neck in particular is very saturated and the comb is fly-away. I didn't realize there was someone here in the US trying to recreate the breed. Do you have more information on the project?

I am just now growing out a batch of Welsummer chicks. They are sort of (not 100%) sexable by down pattern even without the headspot that you would have with a Welbar. One difference I think between Wesummers and Cream Legbars (besides the obvious Cream and Barring) is the amount of red saturation in the feathers. The females really have a red throat and the hackles I think seems more richly/deeply Golden than a LB Leghorn (disclaimer: I have had Welsummer hens but not LB Leghorn hens, so it may be a photographic trick in me trying to compare).

Going back to the chick down color, the females are a typical chipmunk chick and the boys have a less distinct to blurred V/eyeliner and are generally more pale/blonde. The boys have no hint of any grey at all, and I doubt (but don't know and hope an expert that does know will add in) that just barring will result in an otherwise wild type male down to turn shades of grey. A photo from Harislau http://www.harislau.info/welbars poultry in England showing a male Welbar seems to lack the grey tones.

Perhaps this is what is thought of as 'cinnamon' coloration that the British breeders thought yielded to much red in the Cream Legbar males?

SO for me the problem in comparing Wesummers/Welbars/Cream Legbars to see how gold is expressed, is that the former two have a great deal more inherent red in their genetics.

 

[sol2go]

Given the discussion for cream bounces back and forth between down colors and adult plumage, here's a few of my observations.

The best cream hen I believe I've had, looked more silver than gold in her down colors, and her first feathers had grey and white barring like a boy, so much so that I wasn't really convinced she was a girl. As she matured, her overall look is distinctly more brown/gray than brown/gold next to other CL hens, as is her fluffy down.

I am growing out the best boy I've had, not certain which hen. While his down color was lighter than the other boys, he wasn't as light as some pics I've seen on this forum. He feathered in substantially lighter with soft grey and white barring and a nice crest. A hatch mate who had slightly darker down, has darker and more distinct barring, slightly more color on the chest. A third boy from that hatch definitely showed more red/brown down his back and a warmer brown/gold down color. I'm waiting to see what's next and how it relates to the described traits.

Re: hatch rates - I have not had great hatch rates from my CL, or from shipped CL. My CL crosses have a 100% hatch rate, are vigorous and grow well.

 

[blackbirds13]

For males chicks, what's everyone's preferred coloring. Just for chicks, hoping they grow correctly colored.
When I sell pullets, I give a male or two free, if they ask. I usually try to pick them a lighter overall grey coloring. I remember our original males from GFF were fairly dark chicks, so I'm pretty happy that I'm getting these lighter males from them.

My male chicks are not a solid gray. They are gray undertone with a warm overtone - the description I use is 'Slatey". I get some that are very light and more blonde/silver. I have not gotten any dark gray or solid gray chicks since I took all the gold girls out of my flock and I only get cream colored offspring. I do have issues with melanizers and enhancers on some of the girls but the boys tend to be just fine color wise. Lighter is better but there seems to be a variation in the chick down that some folks are getting cream from.

In my opinion there is a slight variation in cream but not to a vast degree and I do not think the birds I have which some term pale or silvery, are in any way to the far end of the cream spectrum they are what cream should look like for the most part with a few issues as they are still a work in progress. What some may call surmising I call hard work, research and observation over time that is being done by a lot of folks within their flocks. Having any chestnut color in the saddle, secondary feathers, hackle or back is not in any way ideal or something I would recommend. It needs to be culled or bred out. If the bird is straw colored in the hackle or saddle it is not double cream. Some of the differences in the cream we are seeing may be due to other enhancers or melanizers also and will need to be eliminated. If we are going to have flocks that breed true as is needed for APA acceptance we will need to ensure that this idea of what cream is has a majority following. I do know that there is a fair number of us that have solidified our understanding of cream, and the 'range' in cream is there but it is not that great. I have personally moved on past this and am working on other issues like weight, comb and barring issues and egg color in the females. Other important features that are needed for APA.