Cream Legbars

[ChicKat]

I think this is the classic "nurture vs nature" argument often discussed in child development... the nurture group takes the extreme that it is how the child is raised and the nature group argues the extreme it is all about how the child is biologically hardwired.

I personally have observed animals like people come with a certain amount of hardwiring predisposing them to be a certain way & I have also noted training makes a big difference to, but both "nurture" & "nature" work together to get the results you want or don't want.

When it comes to animals I find humans project Primate Human expected behaviors onto totally different species, this is a huge mistake and usually results in an out of control animal.

Nature... & Nurture...
I never allow my birds to sit on my shoulder, something allot of folks do on BYC, the reason is I learned when we kept birds such as Parrots prior to chickens it increases your risk of an aggressive bird. We think it is cute, they love us... to the bird as it matures into an adult it thinks it is on the same social level as you as it has been allowed to sit at your eye level in a perch like setting, and often this leads to it trying to establishes its self at a higher pecking order by attacking you... it is a bird thing. Now add the rooster is with hens, and his protective drive to the mix you can quickly have a problem. You can breed for many traits, including docility to humans, the general rule of aggressive chickens towards humans is those should not be bred, also hens that do not preen should be culled, and roosters should be tested to see if they preen on touch (if they do not, do not breed that bird), preening is a social behavior in birds, & a health issue. I have been spending time learning more about rooster training, which means reading things in other places, and based on what I have read, people who want well adjusted roosters, handle them daily usually for a good bit of time, and generally stew aggressive ones, but will make exceptions during breeding (pairing the rooster with hen) when they expect the rooster to be aggressive. I have also read allot on modifying rooster behavior when roos go bad. The behavior modification is always based on the way chickens think & act and not on our human ideas of what the same behaviors would mean if human.

I BTW had RIR and a good experience with them, I also would like to point out many sex-links are RIR crosses, thus can be in theory just as aggressive.

Just some thoughts.

Peace

Hi Laura,

this is one of those posts that is valuable and sometimes gets buried in a flurry of other posts IMO....

could you elaborate a bit on this:

"also hens that do not preen should be culled, and roosters should be tested to see if they preen on touch (if they do not, do not breed that bird), preening is a social behavior in birds, & a health issue. I have been spending time learning more about rooster training, which means reading things in other places, and based on what I have read, people who want well adjusted roosters, handle them daily usually for a good bit of time, and generally stew aggressive ones, but will make exceptions during breeding (pairing the rooster with hen) when they expect the rooster to be aggressive."

Most especially the parts about preening as applicable to chickens and what it indicates - (as opposed maybe to parrot preening) - Thanks.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

Understand I am just starting to get into the behavior of chickens better, then just what I already knew by having a few. So I am no expert... and so this is all open to debate & change as I learn more:

As I understand it preening in chickens:

No one who uses the rooster preening test for tradition's sake seemed to know why: So I did a little research:

Health: Roosters usually preen less then hens, but the act spreads oils over the feathers and helps create healthy strong feathers. So if you want a roo with nice strong feathers I am sure selecting for this trait would help achieve that goal. Also I noted just bumping around BYC more then a few folks have had hens that don't preen themselves and those hens are filthy, that just can not be good for the health of the flock and I would not want chicks from a hen like that as something is wrong with that hen's behavior and if it is genetic it could be passed on to her chicks and in a closed breeding group you could have a whole flock of dirty birds quick. So I am thinking ease if maintenance, feather health and flock health are all reasons to make sure birds preen.

Social Behavior: Hens often preen together so there seems to be a group/flock bonding aspect, I have since been informed as well it is a cue to other birds to avoid conflict. Another BYC member told me it is a "Calming Signal" so the birds do not have to fight, they can deescalate and walk away. And some chickens will try and preen their keepers, so I am thinking it is a good social behavior to make sure your birds retain.

It is interesting to note that Game Birds are expected to be human friendly, just not chicken friendly. So when I read this is a traditional test of Roosters in countries where Asil are very much still bred for game purposes I was intrigued. I am wondering if some social behavior is possibly being maintained to prevent too much aggression? A rooster who kills all hens will breed no babies or that is so dangerous to humans no one wants to get near it is no fun for their handler either. I can not prove that this test is to make sure a certain amount of social behavior is retained oneway or another, but there is a difference between "game" & just pure aggression. "Game " occurs in lots of animals, it is really an animals ability to stay focussed and keep going with a behavior we want despite discomfort. "Heart" is another term for "Game", like a racehorse that keeps running even if injured or a dog that will not give up the hunt despite the weather. There are roosters that will kill hens now in several breeds that did not have this problem years ago, so I am beginning to wonder if these seemingly strange little traditional breeding tests don't have a multiple purpose behind them.

Anyhow that is what I think I know as of right now.

It might be useful or not.

Again it is all open to debate, how much nurture vs nature in keeping and breeding birds, but I think breeding birds that are human aggressive is probably not a good idea no matter how great the rooster is by what ever standard you measure it. I also think understanding the behaviors and using that to your advantage (so you don't accidentally create a behavior you don't want) is really important for a keeper's long term happiness. In a laying flock an aggressive rooster is problematic unless you plan to keep the rooster separate. In my opinion I think personality & intelligence of the breeding animals has been neglected in the USA.

 

[chrissyr]

I hust culled all but one of my CL Roos because of human aggressive behavior. So yes they can be very mean. If you want a gentle Roo get a Bielefelder. Unlike the Cream Legbars they have zero aggression. And before anyone says that it was just my line than it's everyone's line because the roosters that were aggressive were purchased directly from Greenfire's 2013 line as replacements for my Cream Legbars Roos. Hopefully the Jill Rees Roos are less aggressive.

I have a Bresse rooster that is aggressive. I plan on giving him a bath, using the pet dryer on him and after intr his toenails I'll use a pet nail dremel on his toe nails.
If that doesn't cure him and let him know I'm boss, nothin will.
I will replace him asap anyways.
But until then, he'll look like a show bird

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

I forgot to add this that I learned as well on preening: "Preening of self or other group members can be a peace keeping or appeasement behavior. And physical activity reduces stress so it can be a stress reliever."

 

[Kaylish]

I have a Bresse rooster that is aggressive. I plan on giving him a bath, using the pet dryer on him and after intr his toenails I'll use a pet nail dremel on his toe nails.
If that doesn't cure him and let him know I'm boss, nothin will.
I will replace him asap anyways.
But until then, he'll look like a show bird

LOL that I want pictures of!

@Lauravonsmurf Thank you for the lovely explanation. I still have so much to learn. But from what I've seen I have to agree that temperament/personality seem to come way behind "looks" in a lot (not all) operations.

 

[ChicKat]

I forgot to add this that I learned as well on preening: "Preening of self or other group members can be a peace keeping or appeasement behavior. And physical activity reduces stress so it can be a stress reliever."

LOL that I want pictures of!

@Lauravonsmurf Thank you for the lovely explanation. I still have so much to learn. But from what I've seen I have to agree that temperament/personality seem to come way behind "looks" in a lot (not all) operations.

X2 Thanks for the insights Laura

 

[ChicKat]

I have a Bresse rooster that is aggressive. I plan on giving him a bath, using the pet dryer on him and after intr his toenails I'll use a pet nail dremel on his toe nails.
If that doesn't cure him and let him know I'm boss, nothin will.
I will replace him asap anyways.
But until then, he'll look like a show bird

LOL that I want pictures of!

Was talking to nephew's wife, and her theory is that the way to give an "attitude adjustment" to a mean rooster is to shower him with love. Isn't that one an opposite approach from the normal, 'beat him, shame him, overpower him' approach?

I too want to see pictures of him when he is fluffed and buffed...and more important - did it work on him?

 

[chrissyr]

Was talking to nephew's wife, and her theory is that the way to give an "attitude adjustment" to a mean rooster is to shower him with love.  Isn't that one an opposite approach from the normal, 'beat him, shame him, overpower him' approach?

I too want to see pictures of him when he is fluffed and buffed...and more important - did it work on him?

I will update. I think once may not do the trick, but will for a while.
I've found the "love" approach encourages aggression myself.
I think because they are trying to achieve dominance, any stance that puts you as top rooster, will help.
But they will probably always look for their chance again.
A nasty rooster is just unsafe
Now I have to get pics

 

[SuperClucker]

Has anyone just slapped one upside the head? My son did this with an aggressive goose at a park, and I did it to an aggressive deer at a petting zoo. They both got the message pretty clearly, though no injuries were created. I never want to hurt an animal, but I'm not going to allow them to hurt me, either.

My CL, Nugget, is the most human-aggressive of the pullets we have.In other words, sometimes she pecks you when you try to pick her up. She's too young for a head-slap right now, (six weeks or so) but she's working her way there. Oddly, she's also imprinted on me a bit and follows me around.

She's very intelligent as chickens go, and outsmarts the other girls all the time, even though she is a week younger.

I'll be very interested to see pics and hear stories about the roo who is getting a spa day. LOL.

 

[Flaming Chicken]

flaming chicken, I have to ask. ..... was the quality of the birds so bad that you did not want the genes in your flock????

I have 6 pullets that I hatched and 3 from greenfire. I have limited space and so can't breed them all. I like the ones that I hatched for color and body type much more so I plan to move forward and breed them. The greenfire girls can go in the layer pen.