Cream Legbars
- Thread starter jeremy
- Start date
What is it about this guy that you believe is too melanized? Other than his lack of barring on the wing triangle, I thought he was a great looking guy. Help me understand what you're breeding toward and away from in an example like him.Quote:Originally Posted by dretd
Here is what the one that lacks the gold color looks like in a folded wing I like this boy a lot although he is a little too melanized. His type is pretty good and I like that he has a fair amount of chestnut on his wing and some in his saddle:
Thanks for the question--I have to agree that I think he's a pretty good looking guy too!
The picture of this fellow was taken several months--I forget his age, but maybe about 5 months old. I haven't been able to get him to pause long enough to get a quality recent picture.
If you look at his secondary coverts--instead of being the cream and grey they are supposed to be, he has one small section that is mostly black--the barring is not strong enough to override the melanization there. I would prefer to see crisper barring on his chest and have the barring carried farther down the breast as well. So instead of black and white barring I am getting basalt and light grey barring. Other than that, on color anyway, I am hoping to capture him in his offspring. I like the chestnut and hope that I can preserve that color moving forward. I love that he has only a tiny amount of positive white in his greater sickles. His comb is very straight with only the tiniest fold in the front and not overly large. I would like to see a little more depth in his body, but its not bad. His tail angle is ok, but needs to be a little lower. He has a nice mellow personality which is really super--not as flighty as some of his hatch-mates even though he was raised by a broody.
Hope this helps!
Okay. Yes. I see what you mean. Improving upon the barring is important. I also see the wing and the almost black section and almost white section instead of consistent barring throughout (which was the biggest thing I noticed right off hand). I like him the best of the pictures of your birds that you posted. He seems to be a great one to use for future generations. Thanks for helping me understand!
This thread is so awesome!!!
x2
My pictures are similar to the great ones Chickin Pickin posted. I think that there is confusion about colors because some of us talk colors based on our perception of the genetics we are seeing--I may say gold or cream and I am talking about what I think are dilute or non-dilute genetics of the birds based on test breedings. Other breeders point out that there are no DNA tests done on the birds and only use the terms as a description of the apparent color--so silver gets used in place of white but this leads to confusion because the bird is not genetically silver. I had a person say that one of my pullets looked silver--so how am I supposed to take that--that they mean she is too light colored to be cream or that she thinks that the bird is genetically S/- ? It unfortunately can get really confusing and lead to some hard feelings.
And then we have the word battle between Pease and Punnett--where Pease in an Autosexing Journal wrote that SIlver and Cream (speaking of the genetic basis of the birds) are identical, and then Punnett wrote when he discovered the cream color, that it was unlike anything he has seen before (but silver was well known at that point). SO which is it, unique color or one that looks exactly like silver?
In my original hens, I have one that I thought was cream but was on the fence about because she didn't have bright silvery-looking hackles. I did a test mating with her and got two pullets--one very light and the other with richly gold-tinted hackles. So either my hen is Ig/ig, or she is S/- (the Silver has not been documented to exist in Cream Legbars, but that idea keeps resurfacing--hopefully I will be able to put it to rest as I will show later).
I have been getting a very clear differentiation in colors of the females with no questionable ones like Clara that fall in between.
Here is Clara, who I had been on the fence about. She has some very pale lower hackles and no red around her throat--but how do you know if its pale red or gold or rich cream?
Here are Clara's two pullets from my test hatch at about 12 weeks if I remember. The one on the left is clearly very light and she was one that someone called silver. The one on the right is gold-tinted who I believe is Ig/ig and proves to me that Clara is really Ig/ig (unless of course one of the males is Ig/ig, but they are both very light in color so there is no way that is true IMO).
So logically, if Clara who looks silver/cream is producing gold tinted girls, one of several possibilities could explain it:
1) Clara is really a pale Ig/ig so when mated to an ig/ig male, she will produce a 50/50 split of cream and gold-tinted offspring (I believe this to be the correct answer)
2) Clara is ig/ig, but one of my males is Ig/?g and S/s so that he looks Cream but is really Silver. If he did carry S, he would have to be heterozygous or both girls would look silver and he would also have to carry only one copy or no copies of the cream gene, ig. I find this scenario very unlikely becasue it requires two genetic anomalies in the one male and silver has not been documented to occur in any Cream Legbar stock. I only got one surviving male from this hatch and he is most definitely the most richly colored boy I have hatched to date.
So my take in my flock on what I perceive to be gold tinted vs cream hackles.
Examples of Gold Tinted--left average, center pale, right saturated:
Cream Hackles--silly things, all I seem to get are action shots!:
To my eye, I see a very warm hue in the ones that I am identifying as gold-tinted. I am not seeing any that I am on the fence about with this generation--I've been able to categorize them into two separate groups where the color of the hackles is more or less the same within each group.
It is important to note that this is what I am seeing in my flock with with my pairings that I am doing. Someone else with different genetics going on may be seeing something else and interpret their findings differently.
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Here you go RangeChicks. Sorry for the wait, but I couldn't type all of this on a touch screen 'cause I'm sort of old school when it comes to computers LOL. This may get a bit long, but you did ask...
You have a great set of birds and with careful combinations, based on whatever you are working for that year, you can have improvements every generation! Like Chickat said, pick one or two things year, and slowly add to them over the generations or it gets quite overwhelming. Please keep in mind that my observations are based only on the photos you provided and are my opinion. You see your birds in real life and handle them so you are more equipped than any of us to evaluate your birds.
Unkle Kracker is young to have such a large comb, but so go some of the lines here in the US. The comb appears to be nicely serrated. Watch how much the blade continues to turn and hopefully it will not flop over. Because the comb and wattles are so large in relation to the head, which is slightly longer horizontally than vertically (tip of beak to ear, top of head to top of wattles), try to pair him with hens with smaller combs and smoother wattles (no fold), and only hatch offspring in the winter months. I would also pair him with my largest crested hen. He has a nice long neck and back. I look for roosters who have a back that is longer in length than the side width of their neck. Uncle Kracker is young, so his chest has not dropped yet. See that line down the center? You will want to watch for birds who do not have that in the future. The goal is a smooth rounded breast, but the width looks good. Color wise I really like the barring across his breast, and it nicely contrasts with the top color as a good cream crele should. I can not really see the keel or wings, so you will need to watch these areas as he grows, but the wings are nicely held up high and tight. Kracker appears to have a nice wide width at the shoulder, and though he looks a bit pinched near the tail he is not finished growing yet. You will want to pick a rooster with a nice tent shape to the tail from the back as they will be able to pass this trait on to their daughters. From the second picture it looks like the tail is held at a good angle. As the feathers continue to grow in watch for good coverage between the saddle and base of the tail.I really like the lower sickles as they travel up the sides of the tail, and the upper sickles are nicely barred as well. Color wise you have gotten a few opinions, and my best guess is that Kracker carries one copy of ig to have so much red at this early age. My guess would be that his shoulders will continue to deepen in a red mahogany color and that the saddle will get darker as well. Autosomal red could also be wreaking havoc here though, so take it with a grain of salt. The good news is that there is a bit of dark barring showing up in the saddle, and that is rare here in the US, so YAY! Also, if he carries just one copy of ig, when paired with a hen who is ig/ig he will produce 50% cream offspring.
Reese is younger and definitely has some more growing in to do before you can do a proper analysis. I like to wait until 8-18 months if possible to give these boys the chance to grow in. Reese has a nicely balanced head with what appears to be the proper number of six points. Again you will want to watch the blade turning, but if you occasionally massage it and place it correctly down the center of the crest, it may grow straighter. Hopefully that crest will grow into a nice arch over the back of the head. Nice smooth wattles. It looks like Reese is filling in well in the breast, and appears to have a longer keel than Kracker. If possible, wait until he is older and that flesh drops and fills in to pick your best shaped cockerel. He is very close to having a parallel top and bottom line, and I would guess he will finish out that way. Watch those wings. There a thousand things that influence them, but Reese is holding them very low. Hopefully he will raise them when he gets stronger and older. It is hard to comment of feather quality since they need to grow in more, but I think he will end up with flowing hackles and saddle. In future offspring look for birds with wide feathers. Also look for more barring in the secondaries and saddle. A hen with tipped breast feathers and a mottled look to her back and wings, over melanized, will help to bring more barring to male offspring. If Reese;s tail is being held in a normal position for him, it is too high. While it is not a squirrel tail yet, it may end up there. Pair him with lower set tailed hens to see immediate improvement in just one generation! Also watch for more feathers to fill in that space between the sickles and the main tail. The lower sickles are beautiful and wide, but you do not want that split like look from the side. Color wise Reese appears to be ig/ig cream and will pass on a copy of cream to all of his offspring.
Cookie is filling in very nicely for her age. Like Kracker her head is slightly longer horizontally than vertically, so don't pair the two of them together. Her comb is beautiful, nicely serrated, and pretty straight. I like combs like this without the big wickle curve in the front. Good crest and smooth wattles. Cookie has a nicely shaped neck and back. I really like her wide feathers and obvious barring. Her breast is beautifully rounded and appears to have a proper length keel. She has nice proportion to her body and I like the top and bottom lines. Cookie is also holding her wings tight and high which is great. Her tail is a good angle from the side, but watch the width from the top. After she starts laying, see if she still has that indentation on the sides where the body meets the base of the tail. Currently she is somewhat pinched, but that may improve after laying. If not, make sure to pair with a rooster with a nice wide set tail (tent) for fuller pullet offspring. Colorwise, Cookie has a lot of melanization. This may change after her first major molt, but watch for offspring with a smoother color in the breast (no tipping), grayer tones to the body, and some cream in the crest.
Peanut actually looks younger than Cookie, and definitely has some growing in to do.. Her head is very uneven (much longer horizontally then vertically) and her eye seems to be placed back. Look for a balanced headed rooster to pair her with. The comb is pretty evenly serrated and I love how straight it is. Keep an eye on those points though. You want smoothly shaped points, not bumpy mountain range ones. Nice smooth wattles. She reminds me a lot of my first hen Lucy. The crest is super small, leading me to believe that she perhaps only has one cresting gene. Make sure she gets paired with a larger crested rooster. Peanut has a nice long neck and back.I love the angle of her back as it gently sloped down to her low set tail. From the angle of the picture her keel seems a bit short, but the top of her breast is nicely rounded. Her salmon is a bit dark but beautifully smooth and even. I like the nice wingset and though she does exhibit quite a bit of red Peanut also displays some lovely grays. Hopefully her molt will bring in more barring. Watch for her tail after she starts laying. If it stays so tight pair her with a nice wide set tailed rooster. The good news though, is that she appears to have a smooth transition from body to tail, so you don't have to overcome the indentation problem many do. Just widen it all a bit, and look for a wider fan top to bottom as well in the tail of offspring. Color wise Peanut appears to have a maximum of one copy of ig, not displayed, which plays a large part in all of that red showing through. Of course Autosomal red does it's own thing too.
Butter doesn't like pictures? I'll work with it. Again her head is unbalanced, so make sure she gets paired with a better shaped headed rooster. Her comb exhibits that wickle I referred to before, but she is not done growing, and the points look to be evenly serrated and nicely shaped. Her crest is a nice size and she should definitely be passing that on. Good smooth wattles. She appears to have a nice long neck and wide breast area. See that line down the center of the breast? Watch for smoother shaped offspring. I can't tell if she has a cut away breast or not. Her breast feathers are colored smoothly through with barely any shafting, great! I can't see much else, but I would watch for more barring to come in or pair her with a better barred rooster. Colorwise she appears to be ig/ig cream.
Jelly is a beautiful bird. While she also lack a bit of balance, her head is deeper than some of the others. Her comb looks to be nicely serrated, and more points are easy to acquire from a rooster with more points. Jelly's crest is a nice size and I think she will produce even better crests in offspring. Nice neck and again long back. Jelly has a very nicely shaped breast rounding gently to the keel and very similar top and bottom lines. She has lovely wide feathers and holds her wings high and tight. I love the gentle sweep of feathers covering the junction to the tail. Great tail angle, with again beautifully wide feathers. She has some barring but watch for more in offspring. She also does exhibit quite a bit of red, so don't be alarmed if she produces males with more red than normal. her body does have some lovely grays though. After her molt hopefully more gray and cream will come in around her head and crest.
Hope that helps! Best wishes and have a great rest of your weekend!
You have a great set of birds and with careful combinations, based on whatever you are working for that year, you can have improvements every generation! Like Chickat said, pick one or two things year, and slowly add to them over the generations or it gets quite overwhelming. Please keep in mind that my observations are based only on the photos you provided and are my opinion. You see your birds in real life and handle them so you are more equipped than any of us to evaluate your birds.
Unkle Kracker is young to have such a large comb, but so go some of the lines here in the US. The comb appears to be nicely serrated. Watch how much the blade continues to turn and hopefully it will not flop over. Because the comb and wattles are so large in relation to the head, which is slightly longer horizontally than vertically (tip of beak to ear, top of head to top of wattles), try to pair him with hens with smaller combs and smoother wattles (no fold), and only hatch offspring in the winter months. I would also pair him with my largest crested hen. He has a nice long neck and back. I look for roosters who have a back that is longer in length than the side width of their neck. Uncle Kracker is young, so his chest has not dropped yet. See that line down the center? You will want to watch for birds who do not have that in the future. The goal is a smooth rounded breast, but the width looks good. Color wise I really like the barring across his breast, and it nicely contrasts with the top color as a good cream crele should. I can not really see the keel or wings, so you will need to watch these areas as he grows, but the wings are nicely held up high and tight. Kracker appears to have a nice wide width at the shoulder, and though he looks a bit pinched near the tail he is not finished growing yet. You will want to pick a rooster with a nice tent shape to the tail from the back as they will be able to pass this trait on to their daughters. From the second picture it looks like the tail is held at a good angle. As the feathers continue to grow in watch for good coverage between the saddle and base of the tail.I really like the lower sickles as they travel up the sides of the tail, and the upper sickles are nicely barred as well. Color wise you have gotten a few opinions, and my best guess is that Kracker carries one copy of ig to have so much red at this early age. My guess would be that his shoulders will continue to deepen in a red mahogany color and that the saddle will get darker as well. Autosomal red could also be wreaking havoc here though, so take it with a grain of salt. The good news is that there is a bit of dark barring showing up in the saddle, and that is rare here in the US, so YAY! Also, if he carries just one copy of ig, when paired with a hen who is ig/ig he will produce 50% cream offspring.
Reese is younger and definitely has some more growing in to do before you can do a proper analysis. I like to wait until 8-18 months if possible to give these boys the chance to grow in. Reese has a nicely balanced head with what appears to be the proper number of six points. Again you will want to watch the blade turning, but if you occasionally massage it and place it correctly down the center of the crest, it may grow straighter. Hopefully that crest will grow into a nice arch over the back of the head. Nice smooth wattles. It looks like Reese is filling in well in the breast, and appears to have a longer keel than Kracker. If possible, wait until he is older and that flesh drops and fills in to pick your best shaped cockerel. He is very close to having a parallel top and bottom line, and I would guess he will finish out that way. Watch those wings. There a thousand things that influence them, but Reese is holding them very low. Hopefully he will raise them when he gets stronger and older. It is hard to comment of feather quality since they need to grow in more, but I think he will end up with flowing hackles and saddle. In future offspring look for birds with wide feathers. Also look for more barring in the secondaries and saddle. A hen with tipped breast feathers and a mottled look to her back and wings, over melanized, will help to bring more barring to male offspring. If Reese;s tail is being held in a normal position for him, it is too high. While it is not a squirrel tail yet, it may end up there. Pair him with lower set tailed hens to see immediate improvement in just one generation! Also watch for more feathers to fill in that space between the sickles and the main tail. The lower sickles are beautiful and wide, but you do not want that split like look from the side. Color wise Reese appears to be ig/ig cream and will pass on a copy of cream to all of his offspring.
Cookie is filling in very nicely for her age. Like Kracker her head is slightly longer horizontally than vertically, so don't pair the two of them together. Her comb is beautiful, nicely serrated, and pretty straight. I like combs like this without the big wickle curve in the front. Good crest and smooth wattles. Cookie has a nicely shaped neck and back. I really like her wide feathers and obvious barring. Her breast is beautifully rounded and appears to have a proper length keel. She has nice proportion to her body and I like the top and bottom lines. Cookie is also holding her wings tight and high which is great. Her tail is a good angle from the side, but watch the width from the top. After she starts laying, see if she still has that indentation on the sides where the body meets the base of the tail. Currently she is somewhat pinched, but that may improve after laying. If not, make sure to pair with a rooster with a nice wide set tail (tent) for fuller pullet offspring. Colorwise, Cookie has a lot of melanization. This may change after her first major molt, but watch for offspring with a smoother color in the breast (no tipping), grayer tones to the body, and some cream in the crest.
Peanut actually looks younger than Cookie, and definitely has some growing in to do.. Her head is very uneven (much longer horizontally then vertically) and her eye seems to be placed back. Look for a balanced headed rooster to pair her with. The comb is pretty evenly serrated and I love how straight it is. Keep an eye on those points though. You want smoothly shaped points, not bumpy mountain range ones. Nice smooth wattles. She reminds me a lot of my first hen Lucy. The crest is super small, leading me to believe that she perhaps only has one cresting gene. Make sure she gets paired with a larger crested rooster. Peanut has a nice long neck and back.I love the angle of her back as it gently sloped down to her low set tail. From the angle of the picture her keel seems a bit short, but the top of her breast is nicely rounded. Her salmon is a bit dark but beautifully smooth and even. I like the nice wingset and though she does exhibit quite a bit of red Peanut also displays some lovely grays. Hopefully her molt will bring in more barring. Watch for her tail after she starts laying. If it stays so tight pair her with a nice wide set tailed rooster. The good news though, is that she appears to have a smooth transition from body to tail, so you don't have to overcome the indentation problem many do. Just widen it all a bit, and look for a wider fan top to bottom as well in the tail of offspring. Color wise Peanut appears to have a maximum of one copy of ig, not displayed, which plays a large part in all of that red showing through. Of course Autosomal red does it's own thing too.
Butter doesn't like pictures? I'll work with it. Again her head is unbalanced, so make sure she gets paired with a better shaped headed rooster. Her comb exhibits that wickle I referred to before, but she is not done growing, and the points look to be evenly serrated and nicely shaped. Her crest is a nice size and she should definitely be passing that on. Good smooth wattles. She appears to have a nice long neck and wide breast area. See that line down the center of the breast? Watch for smoother shaped offspring. I can't tell if she has a cut away breast or not. Her breast feathers are colored smoothly through with barely any shafting, great! I can't see much else, but I would watch for more barring to come in or pair her with a better barred rooster. Colorwise she appears to be ig/ig cream.
Jelly is a beautiful bird. While she also lack a bit of balance, her head is deeper than some of the others. Her comb looks to be nicely serrated, and more points are easy to acquire from a rooster with more points. Jelly's crest is a nice size and I think she will produce even better crests in offspring. Nice neck and again long back. Jelly has a very nicely shaped breast rounding gently to the keel and very similar top and bottom lines. She has lovely wide feathers and holds her wings high and tight. I love the gentle sweep of feathers covering the junction to the tail. Great tail angle, with again beautifully wide feathers. She has some barring but watch for more in offspring. She also does exhibit quite a bit of red, so don't be alarmed if she produces males with more red than normal. her body does have some lovely grays though. After her molt hopefully more gray and cream will come in around her head and crest.
Hope that helps! Best wishes and have a great rest of your weekend!
- Mar 3, 2012
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My Rees male showed a new behavior this morning, he is normally calm and tolerant around people, he seems people friendly. But this morning when I was giving them food and water I bent over to put the water bucket down and he jumped at my face to peck me, thankfully he just barely got me but he tried. I hope its not the start of more bad behavior. Ill need to hatch lots this Spring and hopefully get a better son to replace him with in the future.
@KPenley that is a very lengthy detailed post above, Im very much looking forward to reading it. It is nice to have someone be able to share so much information in so much detail.
@KPenley that is a very lengthy detailed post above, Im very much looking forward to reading it. It is nice to have someone be able to share so much information in so much detail.
I had one that was soo so sweet - and then one day he jumped..... He was one I 'trusted' -- At one point I caught him in mid air and nearly throttled him. I trust none of them now. I was totally surprised -- he is just about 9 months old at the time. Had a friend with a rooster (non-CL) that jumped her 2-year old grandchild. He was dispatched -- but now-a-days -- I am really leery about roosters at all. :O(
Hope your guy just mistook you for someone else (fox) and it was a one-time thing.
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